How do you build respect with you dog?

[shpchvr]

I posted a couple of weeks ago (

https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenDogTraining/comments/slfcn3/peeing_when_scared_during_training

) about my Australian Shepherd and a trainer I had thought about investing in. After everyone’s feedback and training with the brief methods he and l had discussed, I have decided not to work with him.

Her biggest success tool has been e-collar to date; positive reinforcement never worked, neither did treats. She would only do the behavior for the reward and misbehave shortly after if there was no motivation.

I have learned through reading that this behavior is related to your dog having no respect for you, and it’s what made me interest in trying to work with other tools, as I am really looking to improve my relationship with her.

I considered the new leash pop method because I wanted to focus on building that respect and expectations with her, but it’s really hurt us more than it’s helped.

She’s frustrated and doesn’t seem to understand what’s expected of her and I’m continually frustrated by her ignoring commands that she’s mastered with e-collar work.

This all came from this trainer, I’m 100% sure that I am just not doing it right, but y’all, I’m in tears. If I raise my voice in any way, she pees. When I first got her almost 2 years ago, she was fear aggressive with me at first, she would roll on her back and nip if I tried to move or touch her. She just did that this evening for the first time in a year or so.

She peed on her bed when I went to correct her for getting up from place (just a loud No, which she resisted; I corrected with another verbal no and she got in place and then peed).

When she started peeing, I just went to grab the collar and gently just to pull her off the bed so she wouldn’t continue peeing on cloth. I did NOT correct the peeing, as she was already in fear mode, I didn’t want to make it worse.

She then rolledon her back when I did this and nipped at me to stop. I let it go after that, put her in her kennel and covered it so she had a safe space.

I’m at a loss.

How do I begin to build respect with my dog? The e-collar keeps her in check, makes expectations clear and keeps our relationship strong. It also eliminates all her aggression since our only interactions physically are praise, treats, play and affection.

I KNOW AM THE PROBLEM, telling me that won’t help. I am searching for another dog trainer, but in the mean time, how do I start building respect with her?

I want her to know she can count on me to lead her right, but she can’t do that if I keep training her methods.

 

[naturex]

@shpchvr Positive reinforcement works, by definition it works. It works on you, it works on your dog, it works on wild animals. If it’s not working, what you’re doing isn’t positive reinforcement.

I know you say you don’t want to hear it, but to fix things you have to know specifically what you’re doing wrong, not just that you’re “the problem”. You’ve effectively destroyed your dogs confidence with overcorrection. Your dog is afraid of you. You may not have felt like you were “correcting her” for peeing but she’s got no clue what to expect anymore, hence the fact that she’s so scared she’s peeing and trying to defend herself. Your “training” methods are fully compulsion as she clearly doesn’t have a solid understanding of behaviours before she started getting punished for not doing them. I agree big time that this dog sounds like she’s developed learned helplessness.

You need to work on relationship building, not “respect” building. Playing tug, fetch, tactile social play, trick training, doggy parkour, enrichment activities, consent tests during affection sessions, respecting HER boundaries, etc are all ways to build confidence in your dog that will also improve your relationship with her. There is no tool that will make her “respect” you. But there are lots of different things you can do with your dog to build her trust in you, as it is right now you’ve broken it with your behaviour.

You need to keep your cool and don’t raise your voice, ever. If you feel yourself getting frustrated, walk away. This is so important, you’re not losing anything by tapping out of training or a situation because you’re frustrated. You’ll just cause more issues by letting your dog see that frustration/anger. You have a sensitive and emotional breed. They pick up on the slightest mood changes, and they suffer bearing the weight of an extreme mood swing from their handler. Even anger and frustration undirected at them effects them.

I say all of this because I went through a period with my own Aussie where my training was too forceful and too compulsion based (purely out of frustration, I had the knowledge but couldn’t calm myself down) and my relationship with my dog was awful. He was “disobeying” , but it was because he was scared. He wasn’t actually being disobedient, he was avoiding punishment because he didn’t really know what I was asking of him but learned to expect punishment whenever he felt unsure. The only thing that made things change was holding myself accountable for my actions and my emotions, because it’s ME who is the more intelligent being and ME who can more easily regulate my emotions, and my emotions aren’t my dogs problem!

Take accountability for your actions with your dog, make a lasting change. Your dog will benefit and grow with a kinder approach.

 

[doks]

@naturex

Positive reinforcement works, by definition it works. It works on you, it works on your dog, it works on wild animals. If it’s not working, what you’re doing isn’t positive reinforcement.

Honestly, every instance of positive reinforcement not working that I've seen has been a failure in mechanics - it's fading reinforcement too early, it's not respecting the 3Ds, it's reward placement, it's not respecting what the dog finds reinforcing, it's moving too fast, etc.

I'm not saying R+ doesn't reach plateaus or scopes that are harder, but the actual foundational teaching mostly works, IMO. I've never had a dog not learn a foundation skill with R+ methods. I've certainly had to proof a select set of skills with non-R+ methods, but all their foundations were 100% reinforcement based.

 

[eront]

@doks I would pay you to post this to anyone who says positive reinforcement doesn't work for their dog. Seriously. It's one of the most asinine things people seem to repeat.

 

[jopra]

@eront I feel like a lot of people who say it doesn't work are usually dealing with severe reactivity and would benefit from hiring a trainer instead of using information from the internet.

 

[eront]

@jopra I've found a lot of people will say if they feel they aren't getting results and don't know how to proceed.

I see it a lot with loose leash walking and recall (and to clarify, I mean initial learning). I also see it a lot with people who have anxiety or have unfortunately worked with a trainer that sucked, generally chain store trainers, or relied heavily on Zak George.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@doks What's the reason for plateaus?

 

[doks]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Usually depends on the dog. For example, I PREMACK'd and did a form of LAT for my frustrated greeter, and we just hit a point where it didn't appear to be progressing for her. I did literally 18+ months of work, and in the end, made the choice of layering an aversive over that foundation. I think, at some point, for some behaviors you need to ask yourself if the plateau is part of the 'normal' learning process, or, if this method isn't working. Plateaus in learning are perfectly normal - including for people - we know that plateaus depend on the task, the motivation, the methodology, experience, etc. So you have to figure out which item is the problem, and if this 'flat road' is part of the normal learning curve, or if it's a blockage in the road because of one of the aforementioned items.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@doks your experience sound similar to mine I started using aversives two months ago after 1 year of force-free. how long after you hit the plateau before you decided to layer in aversives?

Premack worked well for me in certain situations but I almost feel like he figured out what situations he'll be allowed to meet a dog.

 

[doks]

@imagebeastmarkbeast

your experience sound similar to mine I started using aversives two months ago after 1 year of force-free. how long after you hit the plateau before you decided to layer in aversives?

For recall, it was well over a year, and for reactivity, it was probably closer to two years. Reactivity became less of an issue for us once we moved out of an apartment, so it dropped down my priority list. I worked the recall pretty consistently though, and just ended up with a collar/line wise dog. >_>

But yeah, ultimately, I layered my ecollar over the LAT/PREMACK/BAT foundation I had for the frustrated greeter issue, and then I layered the ecollar over my foundation of leash pressure and the recall foundation I already had. I have a great recall now, and she mostly disengages from other dogs on her own now, in many cases she doesn't need to disengage because she doesn't engage these days. It's lovely.

 

[eront]

@doks

For recall, it was well over a year, and for reactivity, it was probably closer to two years. Reactivity became less of an issue for us once we moved out of an apartment, so it dropped down my priority list. I worked the recall pretty consistently though, and just ended up with a collar/line wise dog. >_>

I've actually meant to ask on this.

Would you say that your ecollar use in regards to recall is more of a tactile cue which ultimately offsets the collarwise behaviors? The way you've described conditioning makes me see it as pretty similar if not the same. If not, would you think that a tactile cue in this manner could have worked to similar results?

 

[doks]

@eront Hhm, I'm honestly not sure. I think ultimately the way I introduce the collar itself, may have prevented collar-wise behaviors. Like, at some point it's hard to fade a long line - you can go to lighter weights, but the dog is still going to notice that weight - I think if that line had been introduced earlier (aka, as a puppy when I didn't have her), alongside other obedience/engagement work, it might have been better, but ultimately, the long line for us = recall work. I lowered my line weights but eventually the thinnest of lines just got too dangerous for me to handle. I actually think she MIGHT have been able to not need the ecollar had I gotten her as a puppy - that first eight months in a shelter though with no foundation and gaining value from only novel stimuli provided by the environment REALLY created a shitty foundation (I say 'no foundation', but lets be real, she had a foundation created by her environment hence the SA and reactivity).

With the ecollar, I actually introduced it outside of the recall, she initially wore it for like two weeks with me doing nothing with it, shit, I don't think it was even charged half the time. That alongside the fact she normally wears a collar anyway, probably prevented some of those associated 'wiseness' issues. Taught her to turn off the stim with leash pressure (known with unknown) so she understood it. I did the basic proofing of the recall alongside the 3Ds and I think I only ever did like 2 serious, 'dialed up' corrections. It's been a long ass time since I've had to hit a button with her - she still wears it because even though she's been 100% for three years, the fear of losing her that one time means she'll never have my full trust - it's my backup plan, but we regularly hike off leash, and it's basically an expensive ass necklace at this point.

 

[eront]

@doks I could so picture myself clipping a fishing weight to my shiba's collar to make him think he's still on the line.

It does sound very similar to how I teach my tactile cues, minus the corrections of course where I'll attach the known cue to the tactile cue. Although, my approach with leash pressure is also a tactile cue taught with +R rather than -R, so it's less something to shut off but something that has a neutral meaning.

I can definitely understand never trusting again even with years of accuracy. It only takes a second and nobody wants to go forward with "I shoulda just".

 

[bojan]

@imagebeastmarkbeast It depends, but usually a few different scenarios:

• The dog isn't motivated given that scenario/distraction/environment. This happens a lot if people find a "holy grail" reward but don't realize that the dog actually likes novelty. It can also happen when the scenario you're asking for is just too much given a certain reward
• The environment or scenario cannot easily be broken down into manageable steps for the dog (this is the one that usually is why reactivity can be so difficult for so many people - you don't have complete control over the environment)
• The trainer doesn't know the skill of breaking down the training in that specific instance (no shade! We don't all have world-class training skills for everything!)
• Thought wasn't initially put in on how to remove scaffolding (aka, training "crutches") when training tools or props or whatever were used and that tool is now part of the cue for the behavior. (So this is where you can't get rid of the cookie in your hand when luring, you can't get rid of the prong collar, you can't get rid of the platform for a straight front, etc.)
• What you thought the dog was responding to isn't actually what they're responding to (so you thought your cue to not pull on leash was just whenever the leash was on, but the dog perceives it as "whenever the leash is on and my owner is feeling a bit cranky as that's when it's enforced")
• You added too many distractions too quickly.
• There's a medical issue (say, pain with reactivity) that isn't being addressed
• The dog's underlying physical exercise needs and/or mental stimulation needs aren't being met

There's tons more. Nearly all can be worked through, but it can take skill, time, energy, learning, etc.

 

[froggyfan1]

@naturex Couldn't have said it better. I think I destroyed my relationship with my dog once but today, after learning more about balanced training my dog has been so excited with me. I have been bitten by my dog because our bond wasn't good. It's been over a year since she bit me and she so different. Ever session is fun. If I correct her for not doing obeying, I throw a party and reward lavishly for complying.

I have an ACD and she is the best dog I've ever had despite her flaws. Never give up on your fur baby, otherwise you failed them.

 

[shpchvr]

@froggyfan1 Definitely not giving up. Frustrated at myself for not trusting my gut. And I know what a confused, scared dog looks like

 

[froggyfan1]

@shpchvr Love to hear it. I used to get so frustrated with my girl but after doing some learning myself, we have both come far. I hope you share your progress as it comes

 

[shpchvr]

@naturex Thanks for your response and pulled some good feedback from these comments.

To be clear, which I wasn’t, I was taught to not use treats with the e-collar. I’ve done it any way in the past. I’ve always verbally marked desired behavior and treats because I didn’t want to just use e-collar.

As someone suggested below, I also never raised my voice until watching this trainer (this started 2 weeks ago). I focused on ignoring bad behaviors, correcting with a little buzz if not completed and praising / rewarding on completion.

My accountability is very much here—I’m committed to my dog, her needs and happiness and her training.

My frustration has ONLY escalated because the training method was clearly not working, and I’m noticeably more angry about it, versus what praise/reward and e-collar layered in taught me.

 

[livingfaithpm]

@shpchvr Lock away the ecollar for a year

 

[justasimplea]

@shpchvr 2 question topics:

1. How much exercise does she get, and what kind of exercise?

2) How emotionally stable are you? Are you easily upset? Does her behavior upset you? How do you behave when you're upset with her?

Utility dogs respect emotional stability and they bond with you best when you're working them hard to the point of tiredness, especially hyperactive farm breeds like Aussie shepherds. Without taking care of these two main factors, you won't be able to build a good relationship with a farm dog.

To me it sounds like this dog has developed "learned helplessness" because she didn't properly know why she was receiving corrections and how to avoid them. As a general rule, punishment and corrections should ONLY be given in response to wilful disobedience, and only if you're absolutely sure the dog knows what you expect and how to avoid the correction. In effect the dog should be in control of whether it receives a correction or not. It doesn't sound like this rule has been followed for this dog's training.