Found out tons of dogs from our breeder have severe dog reactivity

[teacupcat]

We got our 8 m/o Mini American Shepherd (AKC mini aussie name) from a breeder who has been breeding for 20+ years. We did a ton of research on genetic testing, AKC certification, socialization, etc. beforehand but didn't request to meet the parents due to COVID when she was born in Nov 2020. To be honest, we also just kind of trusted that the breeder would care about the temperament of the dogs she was breeding. We've since realized that if breeding for show, the breeder sometimes skimps on the temperament side of things. (Note: emphasizing sometimes; based on the comments below, I’ve learned that show dogs still need to be very calm around other stimulus. I’m wondering if maybe they’re selectively chosen based on looks/temperament or trained early on knowing the lineage challenges already. In general breeders who do breed for show do care a lot about the physical health of the dog.)

Long story short, we started seeing dog reactivity around the 15-week mark despite lots of socialization early on. She did have one poor experience where a larger dog play-chased her and her leash got caught and she hurt her paw, but the dogs were coexisting together in the same space, taking treats, doing tricks, etc. and she's always done great in puppy play groups off-leash. Just her leash reactivity or when dogs rush up to her is game over. She went over threshold a couple of times when we were first starting CC/D because two owners and their dogs rushed up to us despite us asking not to approach. (We're hoping her new DO NOT PET vest helps us to look very unapproachable, lol.)

Despite early missteps of moving too quickly, we've gone to a R+ reactivity program and are also enrolled in a separation anxiety program currently too! We feel like we have the tools to be successful, just need the right training environment. We live in an urban area with a lot of off-leash dogs, so we've been tag-teaming while one person works on CC/D and the other is on watch for dogs. We're making progress.

 

[sunnyd228]

@teacupcat I would look at this more as “my dog is prone to anxiety” instead of “my dog was bred with dog reactivity” and go forward with that mindset.

I have worked with fearful dogs from dog fighting situations, where people tried to intentionally create these dog-aggressive dogs, that were easier to train to get along with dogs than others who were just generally very anxious but raised and “bred properly”. It comes down to individual dogs and their needs.

I have found that some dogs just don’t like other dogs and the best outcome is they learn to ignore other strange dogs completely. Putting those dogs in highly social situations is agonizing for them and they’ll learn to react aggressively to get away. So training should focus on ignoring and walking past dogs and not so much on greetings, dog parks, or play groups. At least until it’s clear they actually want to interact and show no fear around other dogs.

IMO, the best trained dog on a street is not the one who greets everyone in a friendly way but the one who is able to walk past people and dogs without interacting.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@sunnyd228 Second this 100%, especially the part about teaching the dog to ignore other dogs, rather than focusing on greetings and interaction.

Also, that really doesn't sound like a good breeder if they don't focus on the temperament of their dogs for showing. Show dogs are stuck in a small ring within feet of another dog and expected not to react at all. Not to mention they're touched in sensitive areas by complete strangers and surrounded by dozens of people making noise. Show dogs need to be some of the most sound dogs out there in order to do well in the show ring, so temperament plays a huge part in that.

 

[booboo222]

@sunnyd228

I would look at this more as “my dog is prone to anxiety” instead of “my dog was bred with dog reactivity” and go forward with that mindset.

T H I S. Also, one thing people seem not to take into account is how high drive dogs are genetically predisposed to overstimulation, purposefully. Working breeds like collies/shepherds generally express hyper arousal through vocalisation and chase behaviours (along with nipping and mouthing), in working dogs as puppies they'd be taught to shape these instincts into appropriate herding or similar skills as an outlet but in a domestic pet environment these are perceived to be problem behaviours and require addressing to extinct, which is much more difficult than channeling them into an outlet.

And as a side note, show dogs absolutely require placid temperaments; they need to be calm when handled by strangers, confident around a myriad of other dog breeds, and comfortable to stack and stay in loud arenas with large crowds. Some breeders however just do absolute zero when it comes to appropriate home matching and prep for their pet litters, like, sending Australian Shepherds off as solo dogs in inner city apartments with FT workers kind of situations - of course those homes are likely to see behavioural issues during puppyhood. No one is being set up for success there and the fault lies entirely with the breeder imo, but it's a lot more complex than 'the breeder doesn't screen for reactivity'.

 

[teacupcat]

@booboo222 Thank you! Totally agreed, that's why I mentioned that I do understand that to a point, reactivity is something that the breed is known for as its job is to find small changes in environment, react, and problem solve to correct the change. She's awesome with her reactivity/harnessing with prey, sounds, etc., just with dogs has been really difficult. We're working on it.

That's fair - someone told me that because they're breeding for looks, though, that they don't care as much about breeding out some of the anxious tendencies or what you said in matching the right home to the dog.

I will say I am really, really grateful she ended up with us. We waited to move into a large home until we got a dog and knew we'd have the time/setup to put the right training in. Aside from the aussholes around our neighborhood who think it's okay to let their dogs off leash, it's a pretty perfect environment for an anxious dog. We love her to death and she is stuck with us and all of our undivided attention lol. I’m sure another family may have loved her, but I selfishly think we love her more than anyone else ever could.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@teacupcat I second this! I have a German Shepherd and she's not a people person when it comes to strangers, and she acts really anxious when things change.

I know it's something that's natural for a Shepherd but I really thought if I socialize her properly she'll love people (I'm a first time dog owner so that was probably my lack of experience talking)... Not there yet at 10mo old. Now we're working towards indifference and desensitization, which are more realistic expectations for my dog.

Thankfully she mainly chooses the flight of freeze options when a stranger approaches her but she has barked and growled at people on occasion if they stared at her or tried to pet her even after she backed away. She's a bit of a difficult dog and I feel the same as you do. If someone else had taken her I really think she would have been brought back to the breeder when her most reactive stage happened around 6/7 months.

 

[teacupcat]

@imagebeastmarkbeast I’m right there with you. I guess I’m kind of asking myself how much of this reactivity should be expected vs. not. I know a lot of aussies who have never had these issues. Do they love to chase and herd dogs when they play? Sure. Do they pull a little to get to the dog to play? Yes. But the difference between that and these ones from the breeder are that these dogs seem to be anxious about other dogs and don’t know how to channel the over stimulation. And when they get to said dog, they’re still a bit anxious despite socialization.

But, alas, we’ll never know and the best thing we can do is understand what our dog needs to be as confident / happy as possible and go from there! Our pups are lucky to have us

 

[teacupcat]

@sunnyd228 Absolutely. We take new environments slowly and focus on ignoring dogs as much as possible. It’s a work in progress. We unfortunately have a ton of off leash dogs in our neighborhood and at parks near us so we are also scaling back on using walks at all for training opportunities, just avoiding all dogs. My partner and I will go to a park together with her twice a week, one standing on guard for off leash dogs, the other CC/D training with her favorite treats at a far distance from a trail. We’re hoping this gives her more opportunities to take things slowly instead of accidentally getting too close for her threshold in our neighborhood.

We did take her to a puppy group at 4 months and she loved playing there, but got way too amped going in after the first couple of weeks. She’d immediately pull and try to play with the other dogs while on leash. We realized we needed to scale back and work on her ability to control her arousal levels and after she gained play confidence, I knew that ignoring dogs should really be our only focus.

 

[mema1959]

@sunnyd228 We have a pit/collie/wolf dog who just isn't good with other dogs, especially intact males even though he's neutered. He's a good boy and we just keep him away from other dogs. It's easier to do in the extremely rural area I live.

 

[teacupcat]

@mema1959 Yeah. Our area is so highly populated and people think that dogs are supposed to be friendly with every single dog and human they see. It’s extremely triggering for her but we try to manage everything as much as we can. We actually just bought a bright red vest that come in today that says DO NOT PET so I’m hoping it at least deters people from wanting to squeal when they see her. She is cute but she is fierce.

It's also interesting because she's SUPER sweet with people and dogs once she has the opportunity to sniff them and they ignore her. But that's the thing, we have to very, very selective of the dogs we allow her to meet. They have to be really calm in initial greetings or she definitely does get overwhelmed.

While she's never been aggressive, she has been anxious greeting a more lively dog, and I've read a ton of articles about how anxiety can 100% lead to fight out of fight or flight, it only takes one time. So we're really cautious about this.

 

[sunnyd228]

@teacupcat It sounds like you’re doing great and you seem super in tune with her level of anxiety and her needs!!

 

[howdodrive]

@mema1959 have you run a DNA test on him? that mix sounds like a handful!

 

[mema1959]

@howdodrive No. I knew his parents and dad was a red nose pit and mom was a second generation wolf dog mixed with a collie, and she looked it too. He's a perfect mixture of all 3. They're extremely hyper and need a lot of attention, but they're all big babies at the same time. It's funny.

 

[thetraveller]

@teacupcat I also have a Mini Aussie who is 2 years old now and she’s severely reactive as well. It’s honestly so hard. I know I didn’t cause it and I do my best, so I try to just accept it. It’s especially hard now, living in an apartment. I can’t wait to move to a house with a big yard so we can play frisbee without worrying about other dogs around. And she will also have more space from my other dog who she’s sensitive to and will snap at often when she’s in a bad mood.

 

[teacupcat]

@thetraveller If you don’t mind me asking, whereabouts are you all? I’m always happy to chat as well. I know how hard it is. She wants so badly to have space and I’d love to just run her around and play ball the park but we just can’t because I know it’s too unpredictable of an environment for her

 

[thetraveller]

@teacupcat We are in Miami right now, moved from Arizona last year.

Have you tried a long line for your dog? I’ve found it’s helped a lot with mine. She’s less reactive when she’s got a little more freedom (but still can’t be approached). I take her to a field on a 50ft line and it works pretty well but still hard to navigate leaving our apartment and coming back when people are around every corner.

 

[teacupcat]

@thetraveller Ah got it. We are in the Bay Area. We recently started putting a long line on her this weekend for her training at parks. I get so scared giving her more freedom because I’m worried about her running and lunging but I think it is way more natural for her to feel safe. I’ll continue doing that!

 

[thetraveller]

@teacupcat Definitely try it out more, I use it more often then the 6ft leash now! The shorter the leash the more tense she is.

Also another of the greatest things I’ve been doing with my dog is the sexier than a squirrel challenge by absolute dogs. I’ve seen better results playing those games in a very short amount of time then I’ve seen over the past year doing LAT, engage disengage, CC, desensitization, etc.

 

[teacupcat]

@thetraveller Love Absolute Dogs. We just finished their Calm Dog series and it was so helpful. We have access to a friend’s STAS challenge so we’ll continue that one. The only challenge is our girl gets super amped really fast with games so the calm one was awesome because it was all about arousal up / arousal down games. I learned a lot about how to help her regulate excitement and stress!

 

[thetraveller]

@teacupcat Oh awesome! I plan to purchase the Naughty but Nice version soon but seriously after completing a week of it I took my dog to frisbee league and she didn’t whine out of anxiety or lunge and anyone at all which she usually does!