Feeling guilty about crating puppy for his 16-18hr sleep time

[biblicalwoman]

@happycamper843 I think you’re doing great. Also, enforced naps in the crate as you are doing, makes for great dogs in the long run. Helps with separation anxiety. He’s getting time to be stimulated and time to rest his body and calm down.
I know it’s hard - but those sad eyes are what those puppies are programmed to have - as they never go away….puppy eyes last forever.

 

[isabella63]

@happycamper843 You don't have to force naps on puppies.

 

[georgearriolamusic]

@recovering Yeah, as someone from one of those countries, this is one of the things that seems super weird in this sub. I know the AKC says it's essential for house training etc. and many trainers recommend it (apparently?) in NA, but it's practically unheard of where I'm from.

Dogs learn not to go in the house, not to destroy stuff, and to settle down just fine with no crates in sight around here, which always seemed a lot more practical to me. Takes longer perhaps, but how are they supposed to learn to live in a household when they're not allowed to be a part of it?

Most dogs are house pets meant to live alongside people, not reptiles in a terrarium; why do people insist that it's somehow more natural for them to be in a cage for hours on end? I don't understand that at all.

I'm sure it has its applications and it surely isn't bad for a dog to learn that being confined isn't the end of the world, should they ever have to be crated at the vet, for transportation, or in emergencies, but literally nobody I know uses crates daily as recommended on this sub.

As an end note, it might be important to understand how dogs sleep, as well. They do have deep REM sleep, but just like other animals, this is just part of how they sleep. A big part of their rest is also light snoozing, from which they might wake easily at any time - that isn't bad, that's normal! When dogs are tired, they'll sleep and they'll choose an appropriate place for what they need; trust them. They're sentient beings, they'll figure it out.

 

[alexm961]

@georgearriolamusic I feel like saying those of us who crate our dogs treat them like reptiles in a terrarium/don't let them be a part of the household isn't a fair/good statement...

I crate my dog when we leave because if I don't, we will come home to a potentially dead puppy and a destroyed home. She's mischievous and smart, she knows the moment we leave that she can do what she wants.

Our girl willingly goes into her crate when we leave and has no problem with it. She has an orthopedic bed inside and her water and has a very restful, much-needed nap, as well as a snack.

 

[lll]

@alexm961 I think it's okay to crate them for a bit when you go out. I put mine in for a max of 4 hours and he sleeps like a baby. But I think crating for 18-20 hours a day is excessive.

 

[georgearriolamusic]

@alexm961 I don't mean to say that anyone who crates their dog at times treats them like a reptile, I just don't agree that it's an essential daily practice necessary for all dogs like this sub, and many organizations in NA apparently claim.

I mean look at this thread - OP crates his dog for a minimum of 2/3 of the day; that can't be right. They probably mean well and were led to believe that this is how it needs to be done, but that's too much IMO (and people seem to agree).

Confining them for a time with whatever means (crate, gates, closed doors, etc.) I understand - sometimes that's certainly necessary - I just don't think it should be done for hours a day for no particular reason. And yes, I don't think sleep training is a good reason; if someone needs to lock up their dog for them to have any rest, something isn't right.

Confinement to avoid destructive or dangerous behavior I understand; people have to leave their houses sometimes and you can't train that in a day. But that's not 18 hours!

I wouldn't have trusted my dog with full access to everything unsupervised either when she was new in the house. It took time, but now I can leave her alone because she knows what she's allowed to do and what not, regardless of whether someone is there with her or not. She would never have had the opportunity to learn the house rules if she was in a crate for ~18 hours a day.

 

[lll]

@recovering Agreed. I'm in Australia where crates are okay but mine only goes in when he won't settle. So maybe 2 hours a day max and not every day. I will get downvoted for this but I think putting them in for 8 hours straight is cruel

 

[fallacy1]

@recovering Yeah I find it crazy how much usually Americans use crates, we had a pen for the first few months with our pups with a bed on one side and a pee mat on the opposite side if they needed to pee when we couldn’t take them outside to the garden, some water in the corner. People seem to assume dogs should sleep like humans, but they don’t they regularly wake up and move around, they are right fidgets.

After the pen/toilet training they sleep in the kitchen which has the back door and a tiled floor for those hot nights, or sometimes in my room. They tend to follow us around and go to sleep where ever we are chilling and will wake up to play or go outside.

 

[isabella63]

@recovering I totally agree. It's getting out of hand. Poor dogs.

 

[jimmyd]

@happycamper843 He only settles for 15-30 min max because he’s not used to it. Let him sleep outside the crate. Try tethering him to you if you need to at first and drop treats whenever he is calm. He’ll get it eventually. I think you need to let him learn to settle outside of the crate and not crate him all the time for naps. Otherwise he won’t be able to learn. That’s what I did with my puppy and we have no issues.

 

[truthseeker60]

@happycamper843 Providing agency and choices for your dog is important. I find one of easiest ways to provide rest for your dog is to provide them multiple places to sleep. additionally, while one may provide their dog with choices, ultimately, a dog decides what is reinforcing. I would look up relaxation protocol. Also,18 hours per day is ALOT of time in a crate/confined area, and I wonder if you can find a different way to meet all of his enrichment needs without crating him for so long. I don't know any actual real evidence on the 2 hours/1 hour rule. If you need a good book, I would recommend canine enrichment for the real world. they have a nice section on rest and enrichment. and also look up decompression walks.

 

[happycamper843]

@truthseeker60 He already knows relaxation protocol and he's a very mellow puppy. His problem with trying to rest outside the pen is he gets up every 10-15 minutes, moves, stays awake, chews a toy for a few minutes, goes to sleep for 15, wakes up, moves, stays awake, chews a toy, sleep for 15, then wake up again and this will continue until I put him to nap. Or he will lie next to me wide awake for at least 30 mins just watching me work, nap for 15, wake up, and watch me again. He doesn't get solid sleep he keeps doing this. He always has one eye pretty much open with any noise. As soon as I put him in his crate, he finally actually gets a deep slumber.

Additionally, at his age he can only do 25 min walks in the morning and evening, which he does get. He also gets training time and has lots of enrichment throughout the day since I work from home. I'm able to dedicate his awake time to ensuring he gets enough

 

[boomer613]

@happycamper843

chews a toy for a few minutes, goes to sleep for 15, wakes up, moves, stays awake, chews a toy, sleep for 15, then wake up again

This sounds like normal puppy behavior to me, for a 5 month old. I think you might be interpreting the sleeping guidelines a little too strictly.

 

[bennieleetillman]

@happycamper843 That’s just normal dog behavior - they don’t enter rest mode like a computer.

 

[tropicalbaby]

@happycamper843 Thats all very very normal behavior for his age. I really think that people compare puppies to human babies a little too often. Light sleep is the norm. Think about it- it would be dangerous as hell for a puppy in the wild to sleep too deeply, they would get woken up by being eaten by a predator. They have light sleep cycles for a reason - instinct. Over time he will learn to sleep longer, but they always lift their heads to check out the situation if they hear a noise. They just learn that noise isnt dangerous and then go right back to sleep.

 

[barotaro]

@happycamper843 Remove his toys. Don’t have them accessible to him. He needs to learn how to relax outside of the crate any way. 18 hour is too much. I don’t use a crate for my own dog, but I feel 6+ hours is pushing it.

 

[acceptedfromabove]

@happycamper843 Sorry if I'm missing something, but I don't see what the issue is if he's mostly minding his business? My puppy was crated when he was sleeping following the 2 hours sleep-1 hour awake method but that's because he was an absolute terror when awake. I couldn't work because he was destroying things. He earned the privilege of sleeping outside of it in the day at around 6-7 months.

If he's chewing a toy calmly and not being a menace to society....why is he being crated for all of this time...

 

[happycamper843]

@acceptedfromabove He does absolutely amazing outside his crate when he gets proper sleep, but I have noticed when he doesn't get enough sleep or if he's sleeping in short increments, he'll start getting extra bitey and stop listening to commands. He's usually good with not biting, going for clothes, or blankets when he's rested. But if he doesn't nap properly, he'll start going for my clothes, barking at me, and getting upset. Even swapping toy or high-quality treat stop working. He knows the calm down command, and it works perfectly, but only when he's rested. It's almost like he throws an overtired toddler tantrum

 

[acceptedfromabove]

@happycamper843 Makes sense, but it just seems like a lot of time to spend crated regardless. I think almost every person on this post agrees that while puppies need to be crated to be forced to nap so they aren't sociopaths, this is way above what's good for a puppy