Am I the only one who doesn’t like using the term balanced trainer?

[gineke]

As a trainer I try my best to avoid things that my dog and my clients dogs find highly averse, my dog works amazing on her E-collar and prong, but acts like she’s going to die if she’s wearing a gentle leader lol. Do what works for your dog!
Anyways… I hate calling myself a balanced trainer.

One I don’t feel like I really am a balanced trainer… I’d say I use about 70 percent reward based methods and the other 30 I implement the prong and e-collar for fine tuning but I’m not using either tool as a way to punish a dog.

But because of the usage of prongs and E-collars I don’t really fall under Reward based or LIMA.

I was giving a business card to someone recently when they asked what my philosophy was, when I replied that I fall under the balanced category they replied “oh so like The Dog Daddy”, which personally isn’t the impression I ever want to make.

Anyone else struggle with this? Have you found a terminology that works for you?

 

[17xande]

@gineke I'm not a dog trainer. But I would've defended the label balanced trainer and said the dog daddy is not a trainer and he's an abusive POS that has nothing to do with balanced training. I think people need education on balanced training. Sensational media blows up people like dog daddy and they don't show you the real balanced trainers like Robert cabal, Michael Ellis, Tom Davis etc.

 

[gineke]

@17xande I did by best to speak that he does not represent what I do and what many others do but they had no interest anymore unfortunately. It’s a shame what media has done with dog training sometimes…

 

[17xande]

@gineke Sorry to hear. Honestly, thinking about this. I don't even know if it has anything to do with the term balanced trainers. I think it might be the "tools" associated with balanced training. You could use whatever term you want but I think those people, as soon as they see or hear ecollar/prong use, will flip their shit. They might be more mad if you use a misleading term without being upfront about using prongs and ecollars.

 

[aveotheotokos]

@17xande Dog daddy is just the other side of the Zak George coin…..YouTuber who makes dog based content for $. (To be 100% clear I agree with you)

 

[17xande]

@aveotheotokos Yeah, there's nothing balanced about either of them. I hate Zaks Holier than Thou attitude, can't stand people like that.

You gotta do what you gotta do for the dog. Theres so many dogs being sent to kill shelters and being abandoned because no one taught them that they cant just do whatever they want. Some dogs are hard ass breeds and don't understand when you say no or ignore them, that may work really well on pack driven dogs like labs. On the flip side doesn't mean hard ass dogs shouldn't be praised, given treats and loved. Logically balanced training just makes so much sense, I don't understand people, really.

 

[gineke]

@aveotheotokos Absolutely

 

[evuke]

@17xande Shout out to Beckman too!

 

[lovejt209]

@evuke Lost all respect for Beckman since he started aligning himself with/publicly supporting dog daddy

 

[evuke]

@lovejt209 oh shit, he did?

 

[lovejt209]

@evuke Yeah check out his latest podcast ep

 

[mew]

@lovejt209 I don't think having a podcast with the dog daddy implies that he agrees with his methods. There's nothing wrong with open discussions even if you disagree with the other side entirely. That's a lot of podcasts.

 

[lovejt209]

@mew As stated in my comment, it wasn’t an open discussion, it was Beckman publicly supporting this pos and letting him defend/justify his “training.” The proof is in the pudding - just go listen to the ep yourself

 

[davecb]

@gineke I don't like the term because I feel like those of us who are very R+ but not PP (and I don't believe that actually exists for people who produce dogs who work), are not considered balanced trainers, and I don't get why.

I don't currently have any reasons to use prong collars or e collars on my dogs. I'm a pretty good trainer for dog sports and for what some people call, "real life".

But I don't take real issue with those tools, when used fairly and with some thought and training. There are dogs who without a prong collar, are going to go back to the shelter that they came from. If it takes a prong collar to keep a big strong untrained dog in a new home, then that's ok. I'm fine with that.

As an aside, I think Tom Davis is a good, fair trainer and more pet people should probably watch his videos, especially his older ones.

My dogs very much have rules, boundaries, I have expectations of behavior, and I require compliance. In dog sports I can get that with shaping, food, a clicker, toys.

But outside the ring I still expect my dogs to behave. And if I have a young dog who is feeling his or her oats, and wants to drag me across the parking lot, I don't let that happen. If I have a dog who doesn't want to load up in the car crate when we leave, again, I'm not going to have an hours long stand off on that.

I tend to say I skew very R+ but that positive is not at all permissive. Not sure how better to put it.

 

[eve_marie]

@gineke Dog Daddy isn't even remotely a balanced trainer. I haven't watched many of his videos because I can't stand him, but he's purely compulsion based and I haven't seen him reward a dog once from what I've seen.

That just speaks to the type of information that's propagated about balanced training because of the tools that are used.

Guess what the #1 type of trainer is that like to represent balanced training as purely punishment based? You'll notice any time someone comes in here or other subs and talks down about balanced training they'll only focus on punishment and act like your dog is only compliant because it's afraid, and it's not possible to have an open dog if you've used any aversive methods.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@eve_marie Literally this!, really well put. Compulsion trainers hide behind the term balanced training, and because its a whole dramatic process of taming a dog it popularises it

 

[gineke]

@eve_marie Exactly this. I’m almost tempted to do double sided business cards with the other side being a brief stand on my methodology

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@gineke My 2cents on this is its not worth doing this, dont box yourself in, just be a "dog trainer". Unless youre sticking a prong and/or ecollar on every dog first session theres no need to overexplain yourself or methods. It starts to get overwhelming or offputting for potential clients. Once youve assessed the dog, gone over theory with the client, done foundations and all that stuff and then the dog needs prongs or ecollars to further their progress after a few sessions or at whatever point, at that point the client is far more receptive as they understand operant conditioning, theyve seen your demo dog working, they know your clear stance on how youre going to use these tools, which you cant convey on the back of a business card. The only reason i could see for opening with the fact you use ecollars is for trainers who put all dogs through the same cookie cutter ecollar system which is really just compulsion training (think olk9 style b&t franchise esque places). Only saying because ive done the business card thing before lol

 

[warriorforchrist94]

@gineke I’m not a trainer but an owner. I’ve done home training with videos from Tyler Muto, Tom Davis, the likes. I don’t like the American Standard guy or the Dog Daddy guy at all. I’ve been shopping recently for a trainer and have noticed that they either state they are R+ or they don’t state their philosophy. If they don’t say anything I assume it’s balanced and mention the use of a prong and the names of trainers I’ve watched to gauge their reaction. Also if you dedicate a lesson to nutrition I’m skipping you no matter what you believe.

I know the negative connotations around balanced training (I got a post removed for MENTIONING that my cattle dog became a wonderful dog after learning about balanced training). When I look at trainers I do look at purely reward based and the other end where someone said we use treats (but just a few!) as both not for us - I dump servings of kibble and treats together into the treat pouch but also use whatever tool the dog needs and I want a trainer who is open to both.

I would emphasize that your approach is open and based on the dogs needs and drive. That would be a green flag for me. Maybe you can give a few examples like a food driven dog with tons or treats or a soft dog needing a bit of pressure from the slip leash. The term holistic is accurate but for me can strike a bit of a negative as I’m probably going to lump you in with holistic medicine and nutrition and assume you’re gonna rub essential oils on my dog. But if you used the word holistic and then told me it was whatever my dog needed with nothing off the table then we can continue a conversation.

 

[legitjpw]

@warriorforchrist94 I think the American standard guy is like ok I guess only seen his TikTok. I haven’t actually looked at his YouTube. I don’t really like his attitude but I can deal. Dog daddy is just abusive. But I’m also not a huge fan of the people who make their entire personality online hating dog daddy either.