9 month golden attacks me on walks

[outlawingrace]

Reposting from puppy subreddit per someone’s suggestion. The folks over there have given some great advice such as a muzzle and seeking a behaviorist. I am trying to figure out what her triggers are.

She goes from 0-100 and it seems to be seemingly random. She could be sniffing the ground then next thing I know she is latching on to me and thrashing. I have purchased a GoPro to record my walks.

She is a super friendly, social, and confident dog. She is not dog or human aggressive except for random moments on lead. The biting is directed to who is holding the lead.

Original post

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I don’t want to hear “this is normal puppy behavior”. I’ve never seen a puppy over 9 months old latch on to their owner, rip their head around for minutes on end. I work very hard with this dog on obedience and training, probably more than most people do. No, giving a “sit” command and rewarding does not work. Neither does “leave it”. When she goes into this state she will become absolutely feral.

I don’t mean to come off as defensive, but whoever I express frustration in told “it’s a puppy”. I’m also frustrated because we just got back from one of the worst walks weve ever had.

Here’s what happens. Puppy gets overstimulated from change in texture, open area, people walking by > puppy gets zoomies on leash > puppy latches on to me and flails her head. Clothes get ripped or I end up with bruised/bleeding arms, legs, feet, whatever.

I work on giving commands when she gets elevated. I stay alert and watch for overstimulation and distract with scattering some kibble on the ground.

When she is gone she is gone.

I’m at my wits end with this dog. She has been nothing but a terror.

Yes, I know an R+ trainer can help me (can’t afford at the moment). I know puppies mouth. I know they teeth. I know goldens are crazy.

9 month golden from a reputable breeder.

Ahhhhhgg.

 

[jtyrer]

@outlawingrace Consider muzzle training her for walks. I don’t think your puppy is aggressive and I don’t even really think she is reactive. I think that she has learned that biting and thrashing is a fun game that is self-reinforcing and has likely been additionally reinforced by the response it get from you for months. A muzzle will prevent her from biting you so you can remain calm and still when she tries to bite so she cannot get the reward of tugging or your reaction.

Here’s now it would look: You go for a walk with her in the muzzle. She turns and tries to bite. You stand motionless and silent until she stops and offers a sit (or cue a sit when she is calming). You reward with a high value treat and continue the walk. Every time she tries to bite, you respond as though you do not care one bit. No motion, no words except to cue a sit after she has already disengaged from trying to bite. I really don’t think it will take long for her to learn that biting no longer gets the reaction she wants and you can wean off the muzzle.

Keep in mind that you can’t just throw a muzzle on your dog and head out for a walk. Check out the wiki/resources for how to properly muzzle train- which will take a couple of weeks at least.

 

[ricardborias]

@outlawingrace It does sound like she’s over stimulated, not aggressive. Muzzle training as others have suggested would be good.

Considering she gets over stimulated, have you considered calming medication of some sort from your vet just to get her through this? May seem extreme, but keeping her calm will help you through this with her.

Besides that you may want to shorten/reduce walks. Find some mentally stimulating games around the house and work on training to wear her out. I am sure you’ve seen other posts, but you’ll want to work with her under threshold as much as possible and work her way up.

I saw a huge change in mine when I started cooking plain chicken breast, cutting it up, and using that as her high reward treat when we’d be in a range of something that could provoke her and redirecting her using that.

I also tried spirit dog training online. It may be useful, maybe not, but having someone walk through those steps is nice if you can’t afford a trainer.

 

[monk58]

@outlawingrace She sounds like she is redircting because she is highly excited and frustrated. A good trainer would assess

A good positive trainer will set you on the right path. Walks need to be short and also with pauses to engage and tune her into you at that age

It is a technique we have to learn as owners

 

[tyrathequeen]

@outlawingrace It does sound like she is getting overstimulated and I think at 9 months months old you are entering the teenager stage which probably doesn't help. My guy is a lot like this still at 4 years old and will still get overstimulated on walks from time to time. We compromise on days where we know strong winds/busy people time will be too much for him, so he either gets a shorter walk in a quieter section or just a play at home instead and skip the walk. We also set time limits for his walks and have to step up on other ways to exercise him as well.

I would take a look at how much sleep she is getting during the day as well because that can make it worse if she isn't sleeping enough. On our walks having a really high value toy on us at the time is helpful, at the first sign of getting ready to zoom we hand ours his favorite ball he only gets on walks and let him redirect to that instead. We take a few minutes for him to play with it by himself, then maybe walk a bit with him carrying it. When that moment passes we trade him a high value treat for the toy, it goes away and then we either cut the walk short and head home or keep going on our walk if I think he is able to.

For my guy the world can be a bit much for him and it took a bit to learn what works for him for exercise/sleep/training, but it does get easier as they get older and everything becomes a bit more normal to them.

 

[stairesdustin86]

@outlawingrace I agree with others -- I don't think this is reactivity. It sounds like she has found a super fun way to deal with being overstimulated.

Our 1.5-year-old puppy will get zoomies during some walks. Something will overstimulate him -- stepping on ice, walking through mud, getting pets from a stranger, finding a clump of grass -- and it's out-of-control spinning for a full minute. There is nothing I can do except wait it out (and he's very well trained). The frequency has decreased as he's grown, and I mostly expect it will disappear once he hits adulthood. In the meantime, we just walk him using a bungee attachment so he doesn't yank himself too hard on the leash.

I think using a muzzle in the meantime is a great suggestion. You could also try bringing a super high value treat (hot dogs are frequently recommended) or a favorite toy to shove in her mouth. You could also try reducing her energy before going for a walk with a game of fetch, a training session, or by scattering treats around the house/yard. We do fetch and it definitely makes a difference!

 

[outlawingrace]

@stairesdustin86 Wouldn’t giving a treat reinforce the behavior?

 

[stairesdustin86]

@outlawingrace Oops, that was poorly worded! I meant bring high-value treats to attempt a "sit" OR bring a toy to shove in her mouth. Sorrry!

 

[outlawingrace]

@stairesdustin86 She won’t go for toys. Only appendages.

 

[joshuawithmartin]

@outlawingrace They sell rabbit fur tugs which may appeal more and you can also build some value for toys which might be helpful.

But if she’s food motivated I would suggest playing “find its” (tossing treats in the grass or scattering them on the pavement) to redirect her into having four paws on the floor and sniffing for treats inside of yanking at your arms with her teeth.

 

[seal87]

@outlawingrace What do you walk her on, equipment wise, eg harness, collar?
Have you taken her to the vet? Could be rated to a pain issue.
Maybe reach out to the breeder again and explain the issue. If you can’t afford a behaviourist or a trainer it might be better to see if the breeder will take it back.

 

[failte]

@seal87 as a certified trainer, this is the answer. vet exam where you SPECIFICALLY look for neurological components or musculoskeletal pain and do a blood test for thyroid levels; if you haven’t told your vet about this issue, they’re not going to find anything/look for anything on a typical check-up. then customized specialist help is non-negotiable here; this is extremely serious behavior and needs to be treated as such. the fact she is basically going into a fugue state where you cannot do anything to stop her, clamping on, then ripping through clothing and inflicting damage is severe, and the more this behavior is practiced the more intense it is likely to become. independent of her motivations, she is still practicing biting, holding, and shaking, which in a fully grown dog with practice could severely injure or kill a small child. this is not “normal” puppy behavior, as you’ve said, and thus the fact it is abnormal means the average person is not going to know how to remediate it.

short term, muzzle training and always muzzled in any situation the behavior could occur. personally, i would stick to the collar for the sake of physical control/safety and attach a PVC pipe leash if you felt walking was absolutely necessary (which would prevent her from getting within a few feet of you when she gets overaroused but there is a frustration component). however, given her behavior and your inexperience in using a PVC pipe leash to protect yourself/prevent her from practicing muzzle-punching when she redirects, i would advise you stop walking her entirely and provide other forms of enrichment and outlets until you consult with someone. yes, i mean it; the behavior will be harder to remediate each and every time she does it.

as this commenter said, if you cannot afford to consult with a professional, you should consider returning her. i cannot stress enough that the most damaging bites and “maulings” i’ve encountered professionally over the past ten years were the result of overarousal like what you’re describing, not dogs that are fearful, territorial, etc. OP, take this seriously. this is NOT normal.

 

[outlawingrace]

@seal87 She uses a collar and has seen the vet recently. Healthy pup. I will let the breeder know but I do not want to give her back.

 

[seal87]

@outlawingrace Try switching to a harness. Not only do collars cause damage especially if she’s thrashing around, but a harness will give you better control and make her more comfortable.
Did you talk to the vet about the problem?
Does she get opportunities to run around and get her energy out? You could use a long line as it doesn’t seem she’s safe to be off lead.
Have you tried walking here somewhere where there’s no other people, is her behaviour the same or different?

I understand you don’t want to get rid of her, of course, but if you can’t control her and her behaviour is hurting you and her, you need professional help from a trainer or a vet behaviourist.

 

[joshuawithmartin]

@outlawingrace It’s hard to know without seeing but I am leaning towards agreeing with those saying it’s overarousal and over stimulation tipping over.

I have also known a few dogs that behaved in this way during adolescence (yes, including drawing blood and ripping clothes) and no longer do so as matured adults.

I would suggest looking into control unleashed pattern games by Leslie McDevitt to work through arousal, she has a book you can order online.

Additionally if you have a car or a place nearby where your pup is less likely to tip over into overarousal, I would suggest doing that as much as possible, and also keeping outings short to best manage your odds.

 

[kreke]

@outlawingrace Have you talked to the breeder already? They sometimes have quite valuable insight. Beside: I am pretty sure they would want to know this for future litters.

 

[outlawingrace]

@kreke I planned on contacting the breeder soon.

 

[dr650adv]

@outlawingrace Adolescent dogs are tough. Without seeing the behavior and body language, people here can only speculate. You do need an R+ trainer who can evaluate this in person. Perhaps the breeder will be willing to help you with the expense.

Based on the onset of the behavior after the dog becomes overstimulated, it sounds like routine jumpy-mouthiness as the dog tries to shake off their excess energy. I have had a couple cases of extreme jumpy-mouthiness (think, adolescent malinois who had just been through trauma).

It is not a quick fix, but the "cure" for that is to give the dog a lot of exercise. Several times the amount of exercise they are currently getting. In the case of one dog, this was tough for me, because the dog was only comfortable being walked within about 1 block of home and jumpy-mounthiness would start the moment we went outside that safe bubble. We wore that block out!

Remember that puzzles and trick training count as exercise too.

You'll get better at anticipating the triggers for your dog and you'll prepare those treats in advance. That will help too. Until you get a trainer on board, start increasing trick training and puzzles at home, and start increasing exercise in a space that your dog feels safe on walks. Only venture out into "new texture" territory after an hour or so of that exercise after your dog has been able to burn off some energy.

It's not a quick fix. It takes a few weeks for the dog's brain to adapt to the new exercise schedule.

 

[snorthrup1]

@outlawingrace Wow I cannot believe some of the answers. No one understands what reactivity means. A reactive dog is a dog that is in a situation that reacts poorly or on the extreme end of the spectrum. This is not normal puppy behavior! A puppy will bite but when they shake their head, that's mimicking a killing behavior (normal for toy play but not on people or dogs). This dog is reactive and they are turning onto you! Get a professional trainer ASAP!! This is NOT normal for a dog of that age, and will get much worse!

 

[eyes4grandpa]

@outlawingrace This is very common puppy behavior unfortunately. There are multiple ways with how to deal with but the biggest thing is making it a non event. Most automatic responses to the event is a reward to the puppy. I always try to completely ignore the dog and not acknowledge them while doing it. Once they are done, or they let you go, you start engaging with them again. The dog can be hanging from your arm and you pretend they don’t exist. Completely freezing and disengaging can also work. You tugging on your arm or pulling can be the stimulation they want. Also just keep on walking as if nothing is happening has also worked for me. This is usually when I am talking to someone else and the puppies/dogs never seem to try it again. I have no time for it The “feral” bit is them getting aroused, it’s a dog being a dog.