"4,000 beagles will be rescued from a Virginia breeding facility" / CNN / 12 Jul 22

[juelrei]

@encinoman I will never not have a Hound in my house for this reason. I have a rescue Bluetick Coonhound and he is the greatest thing to have ever happened in my life. I've never met a more easygoing and friendly dog. He is definitely stubborn and training him through his adolescence after I rescued him at 9 months just about broke me because I was dealing with all of his anxiety from being in a new place having been a former Outdoor Dog Who Knew none of the rules on top of regular adolescent stubbornness and Hound stubbornness. Every bit of the blood sweat and tears I shed were worth it for the dog I have now. Hounds are the absolute masters of making mischief but because of their independence but the upside is because they are comfortable making their own decisions (that may or may not be in agreement with what the humans want) they tend to be pretty self-assured and nonreactive.

One of my neighbors is fostering a Treeing Walker Coonhound rescue right now who came to her half-starved with a broken femur they are still trying to get funding to fix. Despite all of this neglect this dog is just happy to be living life and friendly with every person and dog he meets.

 

[kaykay8]

@ginaxmill

Thinking about how these dogs obviously weren't "socialized" to be pets.

Actually in accordance with AAALAC accreditation and guidelines, research animals need to be provided with species specific enrichment. For dogs this usually includes socialization with people and other dogs as well as the standard of exercise, specific amounts of space, etc. So it's very likely that these dogs are actually very well socialized.

 

[ginaxmill]

@kaykay8 Does a breeding facility require AAALAC accreditation, though? It's not a lab, after all. (Asking, not arguing.) In any event, given that this place is being shut down for dozens of violations of federal laws, I wouldn't expect them to have done a great job with the dogs. But maybe they did.

 

[theodor98]

@ginaxmill No one is required to have AAALAC certification, it’s an optional program. But anyone with any decent facility will have it.

Envigo was acquired by another company a year or two ago and it caused massive chaos internally. There was a lot of staff turn over, especially in some higher up positions, and while that isn’t an excuse to not be maintaining your animal welfare, it can partially explain why it all went to hell in a hand basket.

 

[ginaxmill]

@theodor98 I didn't know that breeding facilities were AAALAC certified at all; assumed it was just the labs. Sorry.

The acquisition (Nov 21) seems to have come after the 300 deaths (Jan-July 21), but before the last of the violations. Here's a piece from The Hill I just read that includes some links.

 

[theodor98]

@ginaxmill Sorry, I just meant facilities in general don’t need it, not specifically about breeding ones. The breeders would likely fall under USDA regulations if anything.

There’s been a lot of internal issues with Envigo for a while now, well before any of this.

 

[jenliny]

@ginaxmill

• AAALAC is a voluntary accreditation process for research facilities. You’ll probably see multiple laboratory animal specialist veterinarians (DACLAM) employed there.
• All research facilities that receive federal funding (usually NHS) for research must abide by the USDA’s Animal Welfare Act and usually also must conform to the NHS guidelines for care and use of laboratory animals.
• Every research project using animals must go through approval by an institutional animal care and use committee (IACUC). These usually have a few veterinarians, researchers, some admin people, and a layperson or two.
• Facilities or individuals failing to meet requirements are fined, refused funding, or closed, although this is extremely uncommon.
• I have not read this particular story and don’t know the situation here.
• hope that helps

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@kaykay8 I mean, the article is about how these dogs are being removed from the research facility because they were not actually complying with all the regulations, so while it's great that in theory these dogs were supposed to have been well socialized and treated, I think it's far from given that they actually were.

 

[juelrei]

@ginaxmill Your description of beagles is pretty much spot-on for all scent hound breeds which is why they're my favorite breed group of dogs. Hounds are undoubtedly massive mischief makers that are a pain in the ass but they are so silly they will make you laugh so hard you pee your pants and are just generally sweet and friendly with people and other dogs. I think it's a result of their independent nature. They don't rely on people to help them make their own decisions because they've been bred to hunt independently. It means they tend to be pretty confident and nonreactive but the downside is they will often make decisions that come into conflict with yours. They're definitely challenging to train but I've always found the challenge worth it for how much fun they are and how easy-going they are in social situations.

 

[thomler]

@juelrei We took 3 hound puppies in once and determined we were not hound people. Had had a couple hound mixes before, that were frustrating but we hadn't really attributed it to being a hound. Some pups are just more challenging, and almost all the dogs I've have have been mutts.

Once they got to be 6 or 8 months, they could not get along at all if there was food nearby, and other times randomly would fight. This is also when I learned it's a bad idea to put a leash on one around others (not for extended periods, just to get the aggressor away).

Most of the people I know that have this breed have them for hunting and keep them tied away from each other when they aren't hunting, supposedly for that reason. I always thought that was mean, but the only times I've had multiple hounds, it's been an issue.

 

[juelrei]

@thomler I think it's about training. My hound was food crazy and an extremely difficult puppy. Training hounds is not for the faint hearted. My boy was never a resource guarder but he had no impulse control. We worked really hard with him. Sit and wait for all meals, he had to work for every scrap of food and we did place training every single time food was being cooked or served so he was never rewarded for countertop surfing or begging. He never causes us issues with it once he learned the rules. As a precaution I feed him away from other dogs and I think just managing food that way with multiple dogs would be fine. He shares everything else well and thrives with other dogs.

My hound is very much a house hound. He's cuddled up on the couch with me right now. We're active and because he gets his energy out he never destroys furniture and free roams the house and is trustworthy alone. It took time to get there. He was a complete terrorist until 13 months of age and couldn't really settle outside of his crate at all or be trusted unsupervised for any amount of time. By about 16 months he could be trusted to free roam and be alone outside the crate. Training my hound was incredibly hard but I'm glad I stuck it out because he's the most incredible dog. He's sweet with everyone, not the least bit territorial or reactive and loves other dogs.

 

[thomler]

@juelrei Probably is. And training 3 puppies at once is a nightmare. Ours started out not getting along when there was food. So we wouldn't feed them together. Then it got to the point if you weren't right there with them, they'd get into fights without food. I've had dogs play fight rough, or even get in arguments. I've had my pyr that didn't want other dogs around her food. But she'd just growl and stare until they left it alone. These three would tear each other up. One of the first times when food wasn't involved, it was the one who seemed to run things chewing up the smallest one. I couldn't keep a hold on him to get him out of there, so I put a leash on so I couldn't lose my hold. So the other two then went after him since he was on a leash.

We don't intend to have hounds again, both because of this and a couple hound mixes we've had. They just don't fit in in our family. I would say maybe their stubbornness, but I had a Pyrenees, and given the space (and willingness to give up a good garden and yard) I would do that again. But I also don't intend to have a puppy again. They're adorable, but I've had puppies a few different times, and I have no interest in doing it again. Dogs tend to have a harder time of being adopted, but I prefer them. I've found it easier to train an adult that already has bad habits than training a new puppy. My sanity can't take puppyhood anymore. I always wondered why my mother wouldn't let us have puppies when we were kids.

 

[juelrei]

@thomler I don't think your experience is typical of hounds. I've never met hounds that aggressive to other dogs. Stubborn yes, difficult to train yes, crazy around food absolutely but not aggressive to other dogs. Dog aggression is generally bred out of hounds because they need to be good in large groups of dogs for pack hunting. A dog aggressive hound is a serious liability. Most hunters cull dogs who have bad temperaments for that reason because it risks the other dogs and dog aggressive hounds are poor hunters.

My neighbor who is fostering has a treeing walker who came from a severe neglect situation. This dog was severely underweight and has a broken femur. He has every reason to be aggressive but instead he is sweet as can be with her 3 dogs and I've met him a few times while out with my hound and he's just the gentlest dog ever friendly to dogs and people.

 

[deee]

@ginaxmill Damn. But also: I didn't realize which subreddit this was and then misread it as 4000 bagels. Needless to say I was REALLY confused...

 

[runge12]

@deee I could gladly help with rehoming some bagels in need...

 

[zolar]

@ginaxmill I am in Virginia. I had a job interview with invigo and it was damn disgusting.

 

[brownette]

@zolar Spill the tea!

 

[kdb890]

@zolar Spill!!

 

[zolar]

To the people who wanted the tea, basically THEY called me. Never applied, blah blah blah. They wanted someone for an online position to ‘log’ some ‘tests’, which I can’t even imagine what that would mean… I asked the man who was interviewing me why they tested on rats and he just stumbled around his words and asked me a question about my availability. I ended up just hanging up on the damn guy. People are disgusting.

 

[brentstr2]

@ginaxmill Good lord! 4K?!