What’s this subs take on this video?

[joshuawithmartin]

@charles72 Pattern games from Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt can be really helpful for dogs that struggle with over arousal!

Active management by assessing your dogs threshold and establishing management that works for you (touch, find it, magnet hand, bringing a high value tug toy, etc) is also really essential.

Something interesting that sticks out to me that you mention is that he gets a lot of exercise - I am wondering if it may be too much of the sort of exercise that can make arousal worse in some dogs. I would encourage you to look into various forms of enrichment and encouraging sniffy walks or decompression walks to give him more varied forms of exercise as opposed to just higher intensity activities that may be creating a viscious cycle of arousal.

 

[charles72]

@joshuawithmartin Great thank you. He gets lots of different kinds of exercise, controlled playing in the house, fenced in big backyard, calm walks and frisbee in the sports field (he’s fine with other dogs when off leash like that). It’s just when I walk him on the leash and other dogs come around, it’s almost impossible to distract him, even with his favorite toys, high value treats … I just can’t find a way that works that I can repeat

 

[joshuawithmartin]

@charles72 That usually means (as you probably know) that he is over threshold and too close to his triggers. On walks it’s best to manage this by creating distance and avoiding those triggers, and for training set ups it’s important to operate at a distance where he can see the trigger, but doesn’t start to show tension/escalating body language.

 

[thudomi1582]

@charles72 In addition to something like Control Unleashed, I would also practice reactivity management. Learning how to get out of tricky situations quick can be a game changer and can make your day-to-day way more manageable.

Amy Cook has a class on Fenzi with registration opening soon. I haven’t taken that one, but I loved another class I took with her, and I have heard good things about this one.

https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/7467

 

[mykell]

@charles72 I skipped forward to the 18 minute mark and could only stomach about 2 minutes. I don’t agree with this trainers methods at all, the poor dog is yelping and screeching hitting the end of that prong collar or when corrected. Showing signs of stress. Put into a situation he was bound to fail in. Little autonomy.

Look into something like BAT instead.

 

[charles72]

@mykell Ya, this is why I posted. I was caught by feeling this is exactly like my dog but couldn’t bring myself to trying these methods.

Can you recommend a BAT training site or video? I’m just so caught up in too much crap on the internet.

 

[mykell]

@charles72 It’s a good thing you asked before you tried!

Grisha Stewart is the creator of BAT. This is her website, here’s her YouTube although it is a bit sparse, and the ebook

 

[obadimu]

@charles72 What training have you done at home regarding impulse control? The work we’ve done with no and low triggers is really helping our reactive dog on walks as well. He is both dog and human reactive (mostly fixation but can escalate if he’s especially triggered).

For training we do things at home like making him hold a down-stay while we walk or jog away, or holding a down stay while we drop treats and he has to wait for the release word before getting them. He also knows things like “touch” and “find it” to get his attention. We are currently working on heel and so far doing it off leash in our yard has really set him up well to do it in more stimulating environments. Yes it involves lots of treats right now, but he used to not even listen on walks with treats so it’s a solid and noticeable improvement.

Today there was like a black poodle or labradoodle across the street. He’d noticed but not yet started a hard fixating, so I got his attention on me, made him sit facing away from the dog, and once it got further past I rewarded him and we carried on. I don’t even think he looked back. R+ training can be tricky with timing. Had he started fixating already I probably would have took a “let’s go” approach which means keep moving instead, then reward as long as he does it.

Starting with building a strong foundation and impulse control has been extremely helpful for us, and we’ve basically used only r+ for this progress.

 

[charles72]

@obadimu Thanks for the detailed reply. He is actually very well trained (except when other dogs are around). His impulse control is excellent, waits for food, waits to go through doors, can hold on the spot for long periods, I can get him all worked up playing tug and the a quick ‘leave it’ and he stops. Brings back the frisbee off leash. Sit, down, touch, on the bed, on the mat, find the ball, ball in the basket (new one), heal. He’s a marvellous dog, smart and fast learning and I love working with him. So ya, I know he can get over this on leash reactivity to other dogs … I just need to find the right way and really figure out how to drill with him and practice properly.

 

[obadimu]

@charles72 Is it only on sight or dog sounds as well? Like if he hears a dog barking behind a brick wall, does he react? Does he react in a vehicle or no because he’s not on leash?

 

[obadimu]

I believe BAT utilizes trainer dogs, that might be something to explore. Was the R+ training a group class?

 

[charles72]

@obadimu Reacts in the car if he sees another dog. Goes on alert if he hears one barking - growls and gets his Mohawk up.

Doesn’t react when people come to the house, never barks in the house but maybe because he can’t see outside much from in the house.

The positive reinforcement training class was a group class, other dogs, I nearly blew my shoulder out trying to hold him back and I’m a 6’6 pretty strong guy.

I reward my dog with treats but that class was nuts, like throwing treats every which way all the time.

 

[ryukyu]

@charles72 Did the class instructor help you manage that at all? Did they have any certifications? The class is kind of useless if your dog is over threshold the entire time. When I have taken group classes involving reactive dogs they have used barriers and distance to keep dogs below threshold and able to work and learn.

 

[shamila]

@ryukyu I totally agree. Some group classes for reactivity can work w barriers and a lot of distance outdoors. But cramming a bunch of dogs in a room without anything else is a recipe for a disaster.

 

[obadimu]

@charles72 Yeah sounds like your dog was not at all ready for that situation and the trainer should have clocked that right away.

I was wondering if you can do more work with triggers at a lower stimulus, like if he’s less reactive hearing a dog and start training there and work up. It’s really tough to do “keep distance” when your dog’s distance needs to be quite large to be managed and since you can’t control natural triggers. But intentional set ups might be helpful. BAT might come in handy for that.

Just so you know, aversive fallout is a real thing. I know the tools seem tempting but they can lead to significantly more stress about triggers for your dog. Redirected aggression can happen (not always), and those new problems are ones you really, really don’t want to create by mistake.

 

[obadimu]

Oh and I forgot to mention we use a marker word and that’s been a great way to let him know when he does a positive behavior/follows a command.

 

[sakura656]

@charles72 Nope nope. I like it’s me or the dog, victors holds a lot of the same methods our trainer does.

To do this properly it takes awhile and lots of work. We’ve slacked on our work but we have a trainer come once a month. Even with us slacking on practice my boy has slowly improved.

The biggest part is finding the distance that your dog is right before reacting, treat (or toy depending on what gets the best reaction)for everytime they look at you. You just slowly work closer from that distance. If they stop taking treats or playing with the toy you’re to close and they are about to hit threshold.

We always end with simple easy things so that we end on a good note

 

[sarahtoo]

@charles72 Watching it with a cuppa. Will comment on each section as I watch.

I like the bit where he compares reactivty to weeds, you can chop it down but if you don't treat the root cause it will come back.

I think he went too fast with the loose leash walking with the prong around the other dog. It worked but could have been easily been too much for many dogs. I would have gotten him to how he looks at 20mins in before trying around another dog.

The bit on punishments and rewards seems acurate according to operant conditioning. The reminder that the dog decides what is aversive or not is good too. I recognise that verbal marker, think I know where this dude learnt

Zeke did amazing for his first session there. Great seeing him able to enjoy a game of tug with his owner with the other dog feet away at the end. Second session. Wow he really is such a good dog looking at his owner to check what to do constantly, very clever boy.

I quite liked the video, nice seeing Zekes progress. Fairly simlilar to how I train my Belgian Shepherd. If you have a working breed that actually seems to enjoy the reactive behaviour it may be suitable but it really wouldn't be suitable for a dog that is fearfull trying to get away. Even then don't just blindly copy the video, it needs to be tailored to the dog. There are ways you could make things much worse if you mess up on timing. (prepares for flaming downvotes for not hating the video lol)

 

[yhudithagios]

@charles72 Question: Is there a reason that you aren't hiring a behaviorist or reputable trainer to work with you 1:1? I realize they aren't financially feasible for everyone, but I think we spent around $300 total for 3 sessions, and they were immensely helpful.