Vet has recommended neutering to reduce aggression

[christiantonyb]

@jkohlmeier Idk why you are getting downvoted. Thank you so much for the civil conversation and info!

 

[katharina800]

@christiantonyb I think it’s because most users are from the USA. I grew up there and all my pets growing up were paediatric neuters. I’d probably have been a downvoter myself until about 1.5 years ago lol.

I’d have understood delaying spay/castrate for joint and bone health having studied anthro, including forensic anthropology which is all about the bones, but the idea of foregoing it past puberty? Nah.

ETA also at the time I thought unneutered dogs would go into a sort of frenzy like sharks around chum and be uncontrollable and break out of houses or containers to get to females. That unneutered dogs all inevitably produce puppies. Maybe some dogs do? But my personal experience has been really anticlimactic and he doesn’t go through leaps and bounds to get to any female within miles. Shows sniffy interest but is easily able to keep to LLW. So back then I’d have thought there was no way to responsibly own an intact dog but my experience since [getting Jake and being explicitly advised not to by multiple vets] is much more varied.

 

[scott1482]

@katharina800 Due to the overflowing shelters, there’s a hard push for pediatric neuter/spay. The goal is to get as many dogs fixed before adopting them out (as soon as possible). This is because there’s the worry the adopter won’t do it/the expense will turn off potential adopters/etc. I’m torn on this, because I understand WHY shelters do this, they’re desperately trying to prevent the rapid increase in unplanned litters… but also it’s really not good for dogs to be neutered or spayed as puppies.

 

[katharina800]

@scott1482 Oh yeah, I totally understand why. It’s a good way to try to get shelter and stray populations down, a “greater good” thing and I believe in places where populations are overflowing it’s the lesser evil. I still encourage people with no history of behavioural issues to spay/castrate and would with Jake if the vets and behaviourist didn’t have concern or thought the implant was an adequate simulation to test with (they don’t because real castration increases LH by up to 20x forever, while implant only slightly increases it a few weeks.)

But there’s definitely something to be said against paediatric neuter in places where the population density is lower since it can have lasting consequences on joint development and bone density (hence why your osteoporosis and osteoarthritis get much more likely after removing reproductive organs, menopause, etc.)

Same with behavioural issues. If Jake lived somewhere else it might have been the lesser evil to neuter him and if he escalated to more aggressive behaviour to cross that bridge then up to and including BE, to make sure he can’t ever make puppies. But in an area where he’s living inside except for walks and enrichment there isn’t the same push.

Some people would make the argument we still should to make room for international rescues but they don’t have homecheckers everywhere for prospective adopters (I know as I tried 3-4 first and got rejected repeatedly for that reason) and to be honest I’m not sure it’s the best move ethically or (especially) environmentally to be shipping dogs internationally, plus agricultural restrictions often mean weeks or months before they get to the country they’re being rehomed in. Not great for socialisation or conditioning or training. Plus populations in those areas can view this as just more imperialism/colonialism, “voluntourism” white-saviour complex type of behaviour. Especially if those dogs end up being subjected to aversive training. Just another example of the oversimplification in “adopt don’t shop.”

TL;DR: Everyone has someone/something’s best interests in mind and just trying to come up with solutions with a very complex problem.

 

[scott1482]

@katharina800 I agree with all that 100%. I do NOT like the dog importing rescues. I appreciate what they’re doing but they are absolutely bringing foreign diseases in- they do health checks and quarantine with customs BUT they’re not out here testing for every disease under the sun (most diseases require specific, individual tests. These are VERY expensive and to test a dog for every disease they might be carrying would be thousands of dollars). I’ve actually known a few cases of dogs with infectious diseases that were dormant/incubating that were shipped over, who later turned out to have foreign diseases that were triggered by stress or just didn’t show up until after quarantine. It’s very scary, think about how covid initially spread from travel, and now think about how dogs can’t self report symptoms and no one will even know until we have a sweep of a new disease in dogs after introducing disease accidentally.

It sucks, but the import of dogs is a very slippery slope, and I personally don’t think I’ll ever adopt an overseas dog for that reason

 

[katharina800]

@scott1482 I wouldn’t even if home checkers were in my area now because following them, I see a lot of the dogs get revolving-door rehomed for behavioural issues like resource guarding. Plus, as said, it can be seen as just more of the good ole saviour-complex and inserting yourself into something being handled by local activism.

I’ll always still look at local rescues first and then if I don’t find a good match will look for a reputable breeder. Though because Jake can’t get neutered I may not be able to get him a “dog sibling.” There’s a BC/Dalmatian cross I think they’d get along but she’s not old enough to be spayed yet so obviously that’s no good, lol.

 

[jkohlmeier]

@christiantonyb My guess is a knee-jerk reaction from the neuter-no-matter-what crowd. If anyone casting downvotes would like to comment on why my sharing my experince when asked is so problematic, that would be welcome. Particularly when I thought we were here to learn from each other.

 

[manasseh77]

@jkohlmeier Did your German shepherd’s hormones calm down after 1.5 years old?

 

[jkohlmeier]

@manasseh77 Yes, it was about 20-24 month for him.

 

[whatismypath]

@jkohlmeier My dog had German Shepherd in his mix and the rescue neutered him when he was max four months old (possibly earlier). I've been so upset.

 

[friendlysusan]

@jkohlmeier Neutering has ruined the health of my oldest Sheltie and I am actually starting testosterone for him very soon!

 

[scott1482]

@jkohlmeier My understanding from research is that the hip dysplasia research was done ONLY in goldens (unless there’s a newer paper I missed) and does not necessarily apply to every breed. I do agree that it is likely most large breed dogs, but there is a drastic difference in ideal neutering time for different breeds (dobermans were another one with a wonky timeline, I’d have to check my notes for why). Female dogs should ALWAYS be spayed as close as possible to first heat though- mammary cancer is directly related to number of heat cycles and mammary cancer is very often metastatic. It’s something like 60% of it spreads. A small breed dog should be spayed before 6 months (they go into heat as early as 4 months sometimes), and a large breed dog somewhere between 9-12.

Males it gets more tricky. Behavioral problems can absolutely be associated with hormones, but neutering doesn’t fix established behaviors, it just helps mitigate the stimulus perpetuating the behavior. Male intact dogs are more prone to prostate problems like prostatitis/abscess, BPH,) and testicular cancer (edit: I previously had prostatic cancer here, that is incorrect, I was tired when I wrote this comment), but not until late in life. I personally believe large breed males should be left intact until at least 1-2 UNLESS there’s behavioral issues that hormones are interfering with.

But yeah, female’s it’s very hard to balance orthopedic disease with cancer since they have higher risk…. Personally I’d rather deal with joint supplements, rehab work, and managing orthopedic disease than a cancer that has like a 50/50 chance of killing my dog but that’s just me.

It should also be noted that the research on the link between ortho disease and spaying/neutering was a SMALL group of ONE breed. Also, I do not believe they controlled for obesity/weight gain (which is common in spayed/neutered pets). The biggest preventative against orthopedic disease is weight control.

 

[jkohlmeier]

@scott1482 You might find this intersting: Assisting Decision-Making on Age of Neutering for 35 Breeds of Dogs: Associated Joint Disorders, Cancers, and Urinary Incontinence I agree about spaying all females, the risks of leaving them intact don't balance possible benefits. As far as the effect hormones have on behavior, many of us may have been barking up the wrong tree and blaming testosterone alone for aggression or reactivity.

Endogenous Oxytocin, Vasopressin, and Aggression in Domestic Dogs

All things considered, my advice still stands: everyone should voluntarily make their own fully informed decision on the matter.

BTW, do you have a link to info on the prostate cancer info? All I've found is that it's more common in neutered dogs while BPH and prostatitis are more common in intact dogs. TIA

 

[scott1482]

@jkohlmeier Oooh I'll definitely check out this link! Thanks for the recommendation. And yeah, I agree it is a very individual decision. I will have to hunt down the paper. Now that you mention it I believe I got it backwards- I was thinking of prostatitis and BPH with testicular cancer in intact dogs. I'll correct that in my previous comment. I got like 4 hours of sleep last night with crazy storms in my area lol

 

[jkohlmeier]

@scott1482 No worries, the weather has been terrible lately. It sounds like we enjoy the same reading material. lol

 

[lbelly]

@christiantonyb In some countries, it's illegal to neuter your dog - on the basis that it's a surgical mutilation to an animal done for human convenience. There's a big culture of it in America especially because I suppose there was a serious stray dog/overpopulation problem at one time, but other countries do fine managing their dogs reproductive behaviour in other ways.

Some dogs are more likely to become unwell if you neuter them. A recent 10 year study by breed has some interesting advice!

& finally, just on a basic common sense level, if you were castrated/had a hysto and you weren't given supplimentary hormones, you'd get really ill because hormones do a lot of stuff in the body beyond just reproductive stuff. Including bone health and mental health. Dogs bodies aren't that different from ours.

There's definitely a belief among working dog owners that neutered dogs are less 'sharp' than intact ones. IMO, this makes sense and isn't just hubris - when my hormones are out of whack, it hits my confidence, energy levels, mood, I want to flop about on my bed all day instead of chasing sheep.

 

[kevs21dreams]

@christiantonyb the reason i do not CASTERATE my dog is because i think it is cruel to take a part of his body completely off. think about! how would feel as a man if you wokd up ang your balls were gone. you woul have a meltdown. why do you think you have the right to desicrate a dogs body

 

[genersis]

@kevs21dreams Male owner projecting on his male's dog manly parts.

...

 

[servantofchrist1118]

@sfender Worked for my Doberman

 

[glorygirl16]

@sfender You have to take any evidence about reactivity getting "worse" after fixing dogs with a grain of salt—the ages people generally fix their dogs tend to line up with the ages when reactivity tends to appear or get worse.

I neutered my dog at 2 and it didn't help or hurt his own reactivity; I did it for the cancer risk and because I let him off leash. I will say though that other dogs tend to leave him alone more now instead of fixating on him like they used to, which does help.