Vet and veterinary behaviouralist both suggest BE for my 8 month old puppy

rivka

New member
I need to hear from people who have been in a similar situation, please.

My dog has been with me since she was 8 weeks. She has always had close to no bite inhibition. I have worked hard on this, and while it is getting better, it’s still not good. She is a cute, loving, lovable, kind and very social dog. She is also stressed, anxious, and has had pains in her body possibly since birth. Vet has not been able to fully pinpoint where the pain comes from, but she is on pain medication, and has been for 2 months, yet it’s not enough. She has also been on fluoxetine for a month and a half. Even with these two medications, she is still stressed and goes over threshold so fast. Everything stresses her out, and she tries to just keep going, and keep wagging her tail, and keep wanted cuddles and everything, but she has visible stress wrinkles on her face every single day, and always has.

The behavioural issues are likely tied to her stress. She has done severe arousal biting on walks (attacking me), so we take much, much shorter walks now, and more frequently. It has gotten better. She hasn’t attacked in about a month, but we are also still only going on these mini walks - literally 5-10 minutes.

The other type of biting is more difficult. It’s random, often when she is being handled, and I try to be so calm and gentle with her. If she doesn’t want something, she snaps and bites, like, very quickly whips her head around and bites, and then proceeds to wag her tail. It can also be while just lying on the sofa being stroked on her belly, out of nowhere, she will bite my arm. This is multiple times a day. Needless to say, trimming nails, brushing her, putting on her harness, putting on the leash, accidentally pushing her, touching her when she doesn’t feel like it, not giving her a treat fast enough - all leads to her biting me. She looks confused, too. Just bite, tail wag, seemingly happy, bite again. And it’s hard biting.

So, here is what they say.

Vet: my dog’s physical issues are difficult to pinpoint. She does have HD, and has shown signs of pains in her back which she received treatment for. Beyond that, she says it can be endless testing before anything is found out, and there is clearly a pain even though she is getting pain medication. She also said that the biting is concerning, dangerous even, and that if it were her, she would not keep the dog, and also would not rehome (I asked her honestly).

Veterinary behaviouralist: the biting is a learnt behaviour and my dog doesn’t know how to move through the world. Many things are confusing to her, and it can seem arbitrary. She is triggered by so many little things, which is one issue. The second issue is how she deals with those triggers (snapping, biting hard). I asked her, too, and she said she would heavily consider BE if it were her dog. She said that some dogs are just wired wrong, and that it likely will not change after she is fully developed/mature. And, she said, another concerning thing is how she seemingly flips a switch and goes from being the sweetest dog to biting my arm (she does it with anyone who tries to handle her or touches her for too long), and that it would be different if she was just always a grumpy dog, but she is not. And, she said, a dog who acts like my dog, is likely not a happy dog.

I am a complete mess. Logically, it all makes sense. But she is just a puppy, my baby. I have no idea what to do here. Everything in me screams “This is wrong! She is not yet fully developed!” My main concern is… is she an unhappy dog? Because of her stress with everything, I am trying so hard to give her calm surroundings, but it also means she is not getting her long walks, experiences, fun - all the things that usually make a dog happy. I want my dog to be happy. If she is not, then, is it cruel to keep her alive?

If you have read all of this, thank you so much.

Edit: forgot to add, she is a GSD Labrador mix.
 
@rivka I don't pretend to have any knowledge that you and your vets do not, but as a complete outsider reading your overview, what came to mind is that when she bites "out of nowhere" she's reacting to a pain she can't identify. Also having a learned response of reacting to unpleasant things isn't great, but if it were "just" that, it would be trainable.

Assuming that the pain meds aren't causing their own behavioral side effects, the tragically un-overcome-able issue isn't the learned response. It's the undiagnosed, and possibly untreatable, pain.

If you cannot ease her physical suffering by any means other than euthanasia, I think that's just euthanasia. You don't even have to qualify it as BE. The behavior is possibly -or likely- a pain response and the medical professionals treating her have reached the limit of their ability to treat her.

I know that it feels like an impossible decision to make. It does not sound like you have any other humane options.
 
@dr650adv My take exactly. This is a humanitarian act, I wouldn't regard it as BE. This is palliative care.

I wouldn't want to tell anyone how to feel in these situations, but I've had the opportunity to be present for many, many deaths. Some were very sudden and tragic, and my eyes get a bit watery writing this, some were expected or even desired. Here are just a few thoughts.

Palliation is the making symptoms or pain less severe. In medicine, the goal is often to identify and treat diseases and we have adopted this culturally. It makes it hard to say "no" and there is an expectation that people accept pain and suffering and continue fighting. Im not sure what the right answer is for anyone, but the big emotions around this are valid regardless.

I'm not religious personally, but I understand how important religion is to many people. The Catholic Church has advised that palliative care, including large doses of pain medication that could cause unconsciousness, is not euthanasia if the desired goal is palliation.

Also, there are a lot of grief hotlines for pet owners.
 
@ezrael This is a very interesting point of view, and something I take to heart. I had not thought of it like that. Thank you so much.
 
@ezrael I buried my mother in May of this year (and my father eleven months prior). In there last few days they were in palliative care. We knew death was imminent. They were given enough medication to ease gently into death. We were exceptionally thankful that our family could avail of this process. They are/were Roman Catholic and were given last rites during their final days.

Experiencing this and being present during their final breaths has given me such a profound insight into how we see death and how we manage life in its ending.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
 
@dr650adv Yeah, if it were just that… I always thought there must be some hidden reason for her behaviour, because she has never experienced anything traumatising or anything you’d expect from how she navigates the world.

The difficult thing is the pain. How much is it? Is it all the time? She is sometimes more calm; does that mean she is experiencing less pain for a moment? It’s also not a pain that I can SEE. She runs around, always has, likes to play, no limping, no straining when getting up from lying down. But, I also know that dogs will keep going until they can’t anymore, so just because she looks physically well, doesn’t mean she is physically well. If there was just a very clear answer, this would not be so difficult. I do NOT want her to be in pain, and I will not keep her alive for selfish reasons or just because she is a gem otherwise, but, what if the pain is something treatable or manageable? I worry that I will always wonder, no matter what I decide.
 
@rivka Dogs are incredible at hiding pain. There’s a lot of subtle signs and symptoms that most even with a trained eye can’t spot.

I’ve got a dog with HD as well and have seen wonders that physio can do for a dog and the knowledge that physio therapists have on proper posture and movement. Librela is another option that has done good in many dogs. I wish you the best, this is a tough decision, but whatever you choose, it is the right decision.
 
@lisa1971 I got freaked during the pain awareness month seeing all the physio therapist and veterinarians posting about subtle pain signs.

To my understanding dogs don’t have the brain development to think critically about pain in the way we do, such as why does this hurt? How will this affect me long term? How can I prevent this? Which would 100% affect how they handle pain compared to humans
 
@rivka I want to offer my perspective, as a person who experienced chronic pain in childhood. When the pain comes, the world is an exhausting and confusing place.

When in pain, there are benefits to being human. I could think back to times when I wasn’t in pain, and look forward to times when the pain would cease. I could describe the pain and seek appropriate treatment. I could tell others when the pain started so I could withdraw safely - an essential component to juggling pain and social relationships. I could develop long-term management strategies and I regulated how I ate, slept, exercised, and socialized to keep the pain at bay.

I could do that because I’m a human with the capacity for language and long term planning. Your dog is a baby who lives entirely in the moment. She will never be able to manage her pain the way I can.

The best hope for your dog is to discover what is causing her pain and to treat it, and then to modify her aggressive behavior. This may take years and thousands of dollars, and it may be impossible. In the meantime, your dog will be dangerous.

I suspect that when she is in pain, any handling or stimulation is too much for her. She bites, because that is a very effective way to make things go away fast. The behavior will always be reinforced and will likely escalate in severity the more she practices it. I don’t blame her; if someone handled me the way dogs are handled, I would have acted aggressively too. I would also immediately have been sorry and tried to salvage my relationship with the person I hurt, as she seems to be doing.

You’re facing a challenging and unfair decision. I feel for both you and your dog. Remember your responsibility to public safety, to your dog’s physical health, and to her emotional health.

For what it’s worth (and it may not be worth much, seeing as I don’t know you or your dog) I want to commend the relationship you have with your dog. From your description, I see a dog constantly confused, in pain, and unable to cope with the world choosing to come to you for comfort. That’s why she bites you - because you’re the person she goes to when it’s all too much. A dog with these challenges could not have had a better human.
 
@mark1974 Thank you so much for your thoughtful and honest message. It helps a lot to get this perspective. I know she is just a dog and can’t manage her emotions and communication like we can, but, yeah, the way you explained this made me see it a lot more clearly.

Also, thank you for that last paragraph. That really hit me, hard. I love her so much. I struggle so much with making the right decision for her.
 
@rivka Oh, honey. I am so sorry. That is such a hard situation to be in.

Here is the thing: it sounds like she is in permanent, chronic, possibly excruciating pain. Pain relief isn't helping, and at least one known cause of pain will not improve with age and in fact will probably get worse and worse with time. On top of that, your vet thinks there may be another pain trigger that hasn't yet been identified.

This is probably contributing to her very low stress threshold. When we are in pain, our threshold for coping with stress lowers. Our ability to imagine other things to do to deal with stress diminishes. And in her case--if she's concerned with avoiding pain from being touched (as she has uncontrolled pain from her entire core -- hips and back!), she's long since learned that biting works.

If it was me, I would let her go. Her quality of life is as good as you can make it, and it still doesn't sound good. Her physical pain is bad enough without touching her emotional pain, and her prognosis is going to get bleaker as she ages, not better: she is practicing the biting, it happens frequently, and chronic pain can have a "kindling" effect that essentially trains the nervous system to expect, amplify, and signal pain more strongly even if the original source changes. Chronic pain also usually begets emotional pain: depression is usually found in the same place for perhaps obvious reasons.

You haven't done anything wrong. Your feelings are understandable and I feel deeply for you. It's a hard, hard, hard situation you're in, and I am so sorry.

But I, too, would let her go. Does it help if you think of it as euthanasia for uncontrollable pain rather than behavioral euthanasia?
 
@soulknight I strongly agree with you and I'm a person with multiple mental health and physical health issues in addition to my chronic pain. My confusion on what's going on with me has decreased due to getting correctly diagnosed but the older I get, the worse I hurt especially since a lot of this pain started in childhood due to the damage my school allowed my classmates to cause(I had bones broken by my classmates on school grounds but nothing happened to them for it). I'm in pain literally 24/7 and being in pain all the time is exhausting and causes other issues mentally and physically for me especially since I have to mask my pain while in public to feel safer as I've learned from experience that some people will target your weaknesses/vulnerable spots for malicious reasons but I'm able to cope with all of that despite having days where I am extremely cranky because I can clearly communicate with everyone around me in ways that a dog can not and I can understand why I'm in so much pain 24/7 as well as what helps or hinders better than a dog can.

Edited to add even with my good pain meds, I still am in pain and find dealing with my chronic pain exhausting even if my meds make it less exhausting so eventually I will need a pain management clinic for managing my pain
 
@christianityfacts This is… a lot. I am so sorry you are going through this. And I understand the point you’re making about handling it because you are human and can explain your reality to yourself, which a dog can’t do. Fuck.
 
Or, “going through” is probably not the right way to put it. I should say, I am sorry you are living with this.
 
@rivka I appreciate it and it's my normal so as much as it sucks at times, it is what it is but it really helps that I can understand why my normal is so painful and sucky in different ways than everyone else's normal is going to be painful and/or sucky. Everyone has something that sucks as part of their normal
 
@rivka I understand it's a lot and the fact that you're thinking about what's best for your puppy as well as taking time to think about and understand what people are pointing out and sharing in response to your question means you're doing your best to be the best possible owner for your puppy even if you have to make a hard decision about letting her go super early before her quality of life gets worse than it currently is. It's better to have a short but amazing time with someone, whether it's a person or pet, than to have a long time that's full of misery and suffering. If you do put her down, on the day it happens, let her do whatever she wants or have whatever she wants that will not cause a safety hazard for you or her vet so her last day is an amazing day full of happy memories because you then can look back on your time with her and know she was loved and even if her time on earth was short, it was the best life she could have had despite her health issues plus you can have a smile or laugh at her reaction to trying chocolate or whatever else she only got to try on her last day of life along with all the happy memories that happened on or between her first day and her last day in your life.
 
@soulknight This is really difficult to read.

I think, because, deep down I know you are right.

Would you not get another round of physical tests done? The vet mentioned, a while ago, CT scans, MRI, some kind of joint fluid testing… it all sounds intense. Shouldn’t I at least try?

Thank you for being so honest, I need this.
 
@rivka I would recommend getting an orthopedic consult with a specialist. Pain can have a major effect on behavior. While a general practice/behavioral vet is familiar with a basic work up, a specialist is going to have more insight into specific diagnostics and potential treatments.
 
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