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- Thread starter joshuawithmartin
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@christopherb Yes, I'm super ignorant about being a dog owner so I'm trying to make note of people's experience and knowledge so my brother and I can give him a good quality of live and he remains a happy dog 
.
Like yes I've interacted with dogs before from family members and friends but they were usually just short interactions that wouldn't prepare me for live with one; and they were also small/low energy dogs, this one is SUPER high energy and needs to run a lot to feel good (and his favourite thing is to be chased by other dogs and run in big circles at the park), and is super social -only thing is that when I take him out, mostly when it is for a short time-like ten blocks only- so he can pee and poo, some of the other dogs in the neighborhood start barking at him from balconies/terraces/behind doors and he starts barking back at them and tries to lunge; or sometimes -but luckily is less- actively searches them out and barks at them first or only looks at the direction of their door or balcony and whines a little because they're not there for their screaming sessions. It doesn't seem to be agressive since the ones that bark at him the most are two sort of little poodle mixes and once we actually saw them when their owner took them to pee, my dog wanted to say hi but they were actually scared of him so I kept walking with him so he wouldn't scare them/try to say hi.
I've seen in one post that it can be something related to him being a "frustrated greeter", luckily for me he doesn't do it all the time, sometimes he just walks past or only whines a little while he keeps walking or just completely ignores the other dogs barking at him (this is more common when I take him to go pee in the early morning and he seems still a little bit sleepy; or after running almost non-stop at the park). And he's also very food motivated, so I think this was also key for him paying attention to me faster than I expected him to when he is so wound up by the other dog's barking.
Again, thank you so much for answering me and also for recommending those other resources (I have a word document and a folder with screencaptions with some of the advice I've seen here since I joined it )
. Like yes I've interacted with dogs before from family members and friends but they were usually just short interactions that wouldn't prepare me for live with one; and they were also small/low energy dogs, this one is SUPER high energy and needs to run a lot to feel good (and his favourite thing is to be chased by other dogs and run in big circles at the park), and is super social -only thing is that when I take him out, mostly when it is for a short time-like ten blocks only- so he can pee and poo, some of the other dogs in the neighborhood start barking at him from balconies/terraces/behind doors and he starts barking back at them and tries to lunge; or sometimes -but luckily is less- actively searches them out and barks at them first or only looks at the direction of their door or balcony and whines a little because they're not there for their screaming sessions. It doesn't seem to be agressive since the ones that bark at him the most are two sort of little poodle mixes and once we actually saw them when their owner took them to pee, my dog wanted to say hi but they were actually scared of him so I kept walking with him so he wouldn't scare them/try to say hi.
I've seen in one post that it can be something related to him being a "frustrated greeter", luckily for me he doesn't do it all the time, sometimes he just walks past or only whines a little while he keeps walking or just completely ignores the other dogs barking at him (this is more common when I take him to go pee in the early morning and he seems still a little bit sleepy; or after running almost non-stop at the park). And he's also very food motivated, so I think this was also key for him paying attention to me faster than I expected him to when he is so wound up by the other dog's barking.
Again, thank you so much for answering me and also for recommending those other resources (I have a word document and a folder with screencaptions with some of the advice I've seen here since I joined it
)christopherb
New member
@joshuawithmartin So, are the mods over at r/Dogtraining going to unban mentions of this sub now, or?
@christopherb Why did they ban this sub?
christopherb
New member
@wendy123 Supposedly, they felt it wasn't LIMA and wasn't moderated enough.
Basically, they didn't bother to hang out here and actually know the community, they saw one thread they didn't like (which was also locked by mods, so you'd think they could put 2 and 2 together) and decided on a blanket ban based on that.
Basically, they didn't bother to hang out here and actually know the community, they saw one thread they didn't like (which was also locked by mods, so you'd think they could put 2 and 2 together) and decided on a blanket ban based on that.
southernrunner
New member
@christopherb Doubtful. All mentions of this sub are removed on r/dogtraining. Those mods don’t exist in the same reality that reactive dog owners do.
@southernrunner In all fairness, they do. A few of their team helped me with my PTSD dog. They're among the people who I feel I could get reliable and relevant help from and they're very compassionate people.
What reality do you suppose they're missing?
What reality do you suppose they're missing?
joshuawithmartin
New member
@christopherb Great question - I'm not sure as this isn't something we've discussed with them!
@christopherb They ruined another great resource this subreddit:/
Because you used to be able to talk about useful tools in dog training and I don't think they agreed with "adversives" so it looks like that has bleed into this one too. Such a shame. Looks like r/opendogtraining is the last one standing, congratulations.
Because you used to be able to talk about useful tools in dog training and I don't think they agreed with "adversives" so it looks like that has bleed into this one too. Such a shame. Looks like r/opendogtraining is the last one standing, congratulations.
joshuawithmartin
New member
@joshuawithmartin I have an honest question here, and am not trying to start anything; do you really feel when dealing with a powerful dog that has legitimate intent to bite, that you can LIMA your way out of it to the point it's 100% reliable? I feel people have different interpretations of what LIMA actually means.
You're obviously not going to use the same level of aversiveness with a year and a half old golden that hasn't had any training, vs a fully matured rottie that has hospitalized its owners.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the stance this sub takes, but least intrusive, minimally aversive should mean the lowest required amount of either of those things to achieve the desired result, no?
If you can R+ a dog into the behaviours you want, by all means, go that route. If you can save a dog from the blue juice by introducing tools that are considered aversive, is that frowned upon here?
Edit - put the LIMA words in the wrong order
You're obviously not going to use the same level of aversiveness with a year and a half old golden that hasn't had any training, vs a fully matured rottie that has hospitalized its owners.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the stance this sub takes, but least intrusive, minimally aversive should mean the lowest required amount of either of those things to achieve the desired result, no?
If you can R+ a dog into the behaviours you want, by all means, go that route. If you can save a dog from the blue juice by introducing tools that are considered aversive, is that frowned upon here?
Edit - put the LIMA words in the wrong order
@eve_marie The question you bring up is one I’ve heard discussed in a lot of R+ and LIMA spaces. If you’re dealing with a dog that tries to bite people, there are a number of things you’d want to look at. What situations has the dog bitten people in? Was the bite a reaction to something (resource guarding, redirecting, fear, feeling cornered, etc.)? Did the dog display warning signs (like growling, lip lifts, hackles up) before biting? How serious was the bite on the bite scale?
The circumstances of the bite matter a lot. If the dog bit someone due to the environment or situation it was put in, then training/desensitization/management can be put into place to make sure the situation doesn’t happen again.
A dog is truly dangerous when it attacks without a reason. However, I think it’s hard for the average dog owner to tell if a dog has a reason or not in many situations. Many people say that a dog bit someone “out of the blue,” but the dog was displaying warning signs.
What actually can “create” a dangerous dog is the use of aversives. Many people use aversive methods to stop a dog from barking, growling, or showing its teeth, because these are seen as undesirable behaviors. However, since aversives simply suppress the reaction but don’t address the underlying cause of the reaction, the dog still feels uncomfortable. But its ways of communicating that discomfort have been punished, so it may feel the only thing it can do is go for a bite.
Dogs that are “rehabilitated” using punishment/aversives may not show outward signs of aggression, but they are still dangerous because the underlying emotion remains unchanged. They’re actually even more dangerous, because they won’t give warning before they bite.
If a dog cannot be trained or rehabilitated using R+/LIMA methods, using aversives will NOT help. They may give the illusion of “fixing” the dog, but it’s just that - an illusion.
If a dog is truly dangerous and has put its owners into the hospital, the safest option for everyone is humane euthanasia. Dog training is supposed to be about improving a both the dog’s and the human’s quality of life. If a dog is subjected to frequent punishment and intimidation for the rest of its life to keep people around it “safe,” that doesn’t sound like a good quality of life for anyone involved.
The circumstances of the bite matter a lot. If the dog bit someone due to the environment or situation it was put in, then training/desensitization/management can be put into place to make sure the situation doesn’t happen again.
A dog is truly dangerous when it attacks without a reason. However, I think it’s hard for the average dog owner to tell if a dog has a reason or not in many situations. Many people say that a dog bit someone “out of the blue,” but the dog was displaying warning signs.
What actually can “create” a dangerous dog is the use of aversives. Many people use aversive methods to stop a dog from barking, growling, or showing its teeth, because these are seen as undesirable behaviors. However, since aversives simply suppress the reaction but don’t address the underlying cause of the reaction, the dog still feels uncomfortable. But its ways of communicating that discomfort have been punished, so it may feel the only thing it can do is go for a bite.
Dogs that are “rehabilitated” using punishment/aversives may not show outward signs of aggression, but they are still dangerous because the underlying emotion remains unchanged. They’re actually even more dangerous, because they won’t give warning before they bite.
If a dog cannot be trained or rehabilitated using R+/LIMA methods, using aversives will NOT help. They may give the illusion of “fixing” the dog, but it’s just that - an illusion.
If a dog is truly dangerous and has put its owners into the hospital, the safest option for everyone is humane euthanasia. Dog training is supposed to be about improving a both the dog’s and the human’s quality of life. If a dog is subjected to frequent punishment and intimidation for the rest of its life to keep people around it “safe,” that doesn’t sound like a good quality of life for anyone involved.
@eve_marie
No, but nothing is 100% reliable.
The goal is to treat the problem to the best of the ability.
LIMA means competence. Even if hypothetically you would feel that punishment is necessary, can this sub or anyone else truly assess if every single step has been previously been applied at a competent level? Additionally, it's not like LIMA saves more effective methods for last, they're intrusive, and likely to cause more harm, with no proven greater effectiveness.
It's akin to tossing the broken phone as a last resort attempt to fix when prior attempts to fix it didn't work.
It's not like people are seriously ditching productive methods in favor of less-effective methods because it makes people feel sad. It's the fact there is 0 evidence that if a IAABC trainer + a veterinary behaviorist can't fix an issue, that suddenly some dude with a prong will just make it all sunshine and rainbows. It doesn't work like that.
No, but nothing is 100% reliable.
The goal is to treat the problem to the best of the ability.
LIMA means competence. Even if hypothetically you would feel that punishment is necessary, can this sub or anyone else truly assess if every single step has been previously been applied at a competent level? Additionally, it's not like LIMA saves more effective methods for last, they're intrusive, and likely to cause more harm, with no proven greater effectiveness.
It's akin to tossing the broken phone as a last resort attempt to fix when prior attempts to fix it didn't work.
It's not like people are seriously ditching productive methods in favor of less-effective methods because it makes people feel sad. It's the fact there is 0 evidence that if a IAABC trainer + a veterinary behaviorist can't fix an issue, that suddenly some dude with a prong will just make it all sunshine and rainbows. It doesn't work like that.
@eve_marie Can you actually do this, though? Can you change a reactive dog's emotional response to a triggering stimulus through aversives without the risk of fallout?
southernrunner
New member
@janieve The thing that really bothers me about this whole line of conversation is everyone seems to assume that when you use aversives, it’s the only thing you’re doing. Like you’ve escalated to an aversive tool and ditched all of the positive reinforcement since it “didn’t work”. That’s so ridiculous. Unfortunately there are some really bad trainers out there who don’t use positive reinforcement at all and rely heavily on tools and those examples are really unfortunate, dangerous, and extreme. The majority of balanced trainers seem to use tools to manage behavior in a way that allows them to keep the dog under control and then address the underlying emotional response.
In my own experience, I would never have been successful with counterconditioning and desensitization training if I could not walk my dog on a loose leash. I’m not an experienced trainer so the prong collar was a useful tool to help me feel more in control over my dog. Because I was more in control and calm on the walks, I was able to really fine tune my clicker training and timing of rewards. Her reactivity is nearly gone and we don’t need a prong collar anymore. Sure, it sucked that we had to use an aversive tool that was probably really uncomfortable for her. Even painful at times I’m sure.
Maybe if I was a very skilled trainer with a controlled practice environment, I could teach solid loose leash without the prong and then address the reactivity. The reality is, I’m just a regular person doing the best I can for a dog I love very very much. We can’t expect every day dog owners to become experts at R+ training and behavioral modification. That’s a full time job that people spend their lives studying. I wish that people would just stop looking at dog training as so black and white. It’s such an extreme view to assume that people who use aversives are attempting to use exclusively use aversives. That’s so silly and of course it would surely cause trauma to the dog.
I don’t advocate for use of aversive tools. I do, however, advocate for owners to find realistic and sustainable ways to build happy and healthy relationships with their dogs. I do my best to withhold judgement on those who have chosen different training methods than myself. If you and your dog are safe, healthy, and happy that’s the most we can ask for.
In my own experience, I would never have been successful with counterconditioning and desensitization training if I could not walk my dog on a loose leash. I’m not an experienced trainer so the prong collar was a useful tool to help me feel more in control over my dog. Because I was more in control and calm on the walks, I was able to really fine tune my clicker training and timing of rewards. Her reactivity is nearly gone and we don’t need a prong collar anymore. Sure, it sucked that we had to use an aversive tool that was probably really uncomfortable for her. Even painful at times I’m sure.
Maybe if I was a very skilled trainer with a controlled practice environment, I could teach solid loose leash without the prong and then address the reactivity. The reality is, I’m just a regular person doing the best I can for a dog I love very very much. We can’t expect every day dog owners to become experts at R+ training and behavioral modification. That’s a full time job that people spend their lives studying. I wish that people would just stop looking at dog training as so black and white. It’s such an extreme view to assume that people who use aversives are attempting to use exclusively use aversives. That’s so silly and of course it would surely cause trauma to the dog.
I don’t advocate for use of aversive tools. I do, however, advocate for owners to find realistic and sustainable ways to build happy and healthy relationships with their dogs. I do my best to withhold judgement on those who have chosen different training methods than myself. If you and your dog are safe, healthy, and happy that’s the most we can ask for.
mundagurra
New member
@janieve I also wonder because if an aversive method can save a dog’s LIFE, literally, and avoid BE, we should talk about it. Some of these tools and training methods help a dog and a handler have enough control to take a walk on a quiet street but having a method of back up just in case. I’d rather discuss these methods and potentially save a life than completely avoid speaking about them when they could actually make a difference.
@mundagurra What's worse; having a dog that is never allowed off leash unless it's a super secret, remote, secured, zero distraction environment? Or a dog that's allowed to be a dog with legitimate off leash reliability?
There seems to be too many people here, in the REACTIVE DOG subreddit, conflating the idea of some dogs needing nothing more than your undying love and affection to live their best life, with some dogs that need significantly more boundaries.
You can 100%, without question, save some dog's lives by introducing some aversive methods. I have one in my house right now.
I would put a significant amount of money on the bet that the majority of people here opposed to anything aversive have never used these tools themselves, or dealt with dog's that have benefited from it.
There seems to be too many people here, in the REACTIVE DOG subreddit, conflating the idea of some dogs needing nothing more than your undying love and affection to live their best life, with some dogs that need significantly more boundaries.
You can 100%, without question, save some dog's lives by introducing some aversive methods. I have one in my house right now.
I would put a significant amount of money on the bet that the majority of people here opposed to anything aversive have never used these tools themselves, or dealt with dog's that have benefited from it.