Update!

[eve_marie]

@christopherb

A martingale, when fitted correctly, shouldn’t really affect a dog’s behavior, because it shouldn’t hurt (or feel especially good). In other words, it should be just like wearing a flat collar in terms of reward/punishment, but safer than a flat collar for escape artists.

That doesn't make any sense. A martingale, when fitted properly, is essentially a more comfortable slip lead.

Yes, a dog can pull on a flat collar and choke itself, but if you're at that point you're already doing something wrong. A martingale is between a flat collar, and the pointy collar I'm not allowed to mention, as far as communicating with your dog goes.

It isn't for, "escape artist" dogs, because again, if your dog is trying to back out of their (properly fitted) flat collar, you're doing it wrong, and a martingale isn't going to fix it.

 

[christopherb]

@eve_marie

It isn't for, "escape artist" dogs, because again, if your dog is trying to back out of their (properly fitted) flat collar, you're doing it wrong, and a martingale isn't going to fix it.

Lol, no. Martingales were designed for dogs whose heads are smaller than their necks. Simply ducking their head will pull a flat collar off. It has nothing to do with the handler "doing it wrong".

A martingale should not tighten to the point of being more uncomfortable than a flat collar, and should never be used to choke a dog as a punishment like a slip lead.

 

[eve_marie]

@christopherb Right, because people only put them on greyhounds and other dogs with small heads, right?

The martingale, by design, tightens around a dogs neck. I'm not saying it's something I would suggest someone use, because I think they're useless, but let's not act like they aren't a common collar on many different types of dogs, and typically fitted much too loose.

A martingale should not tighten to the point of being more uncomfortable than a flat collar

That doesn't make any sense.

 

[christopherb]

@eve_marie

Right, because people only put them in greyhounds and other dogs with small heads, right?

Small heads or thick necks.

I have a sighthound and mostly socialize with other sighthound owners. Shockingly, I can't speak for literally all dog owners who use martingales.

That doesn't make any sense.

Well, I don't really know how to rephrase it...that's just how martingales work...

Edit: for anyone coming to this thread confused later, I did not delete my comment as the reply claims, my comments stand. I simply blocked them since they were becoming rude and belligerent and not listening to me anyway.

 

[eve_marie]

@christopherb

Shockingly, I can’t speak for literally all dog owners who use martingales.

But yet, here we are.

Well, I don’t really know how to rephrase it…that’s just how martingales work…

If they're tight enough to not slip off, they're naturally going to get tighter than a flat collar.

Edit - since you decided to delete your comment, yes, obviously it's up to the dog to decide the level of what they find aversive.

I'm not sure where I said that wasn't the case.

 

[p4m3l4]

@eve_marie Both a flat collar and a martingale are uncomfortable on a dog that’s pulling because they both apply pressure to the neck, it’s just not a pressure that dogs tend to mind. But both collars will cause tissue trauma to the neck with a dog that pulls constantly. Because a martingale is a limited slip collar it can’t choke a dog to the extent that a choke chain could. But all collars cause choking if a dog is pulling.

 

[joshuawithmartin]

@eve_marie A pinch collar is designed to be uncomfortable in order to function. I don’t think that discomfort was a priority in the martingale design - in fact I’d say by design and using fabric, the creators seem to have prioritized the opposite, and intent of design matters.

You can mention pinch collars, you’ll just trigger the automod bot like I did earlier. And if you recommend them those would be removed if reported/we see them.

 

[eront]

@joshuawithmartin

You can mention pinch collars, you’ll just trigger the automod bot like I did earlier. And if you recommend them those would be removed if reported/we see them.

Mind if I suggest automod to send those particular items to the queue?

Most aversive methods on the sub I moderate at least are never reported, but are sent to queue via automod.

 

[p4m3l4]

@eve_marie Lol, no, not at all. A lot of dogs have heads that are narrower than the base of their neck. Greyhounds are a good example but my mutt is that way too and she’s not at all a greyhound. I’d have to tighten her collar to the point where it causes discomfort in order for her to not be able to back out of it. She doesn’t pull on walks except for occasionally if we see a cat and if she sees a cat she will back out of a flat collar in seconds. Is it causing discomfort when she’s trying to pull out of it? Probably, but she’s an incredibly intelligent dog and understands what gear she’s in and hasn’t tried to back out of her collar in years. She’s the same way with a long line. If she were loose she’d be barking at and chasing bikes and cars and ducks, but she knows she’s on a long line and ignores all of those triggers. She’s just too much drama to get into a harness so a martingale is the least invasive/aversive gear for her.

Martingales absolutely can be aversive if you’re leash popping or using pressure on the collar to train your dog, but so can a flat collar, it’s just that a flat collar puts pressure on part of the neck while a martingale puts it around the whole neck. A harness is the best option with a pulling dog and I use a t-shirt harness with my second dog because she enjoys putting it on and her loose leash training isn’t perfect. She will pull if she’s on a good scent.

 

[p4m3l4]

@icanspellthornwell Adding on to other good points, if your dog is really strong and you need a tool to help train your dog to stop pulling, a front attach or easy walk harness is the best option for a reactive dog. It’s working with physics instead of being aversive because half of the dog’s strength is pulling sideways instead of forward. You just have to pair it with training because they can eventually learn to over-power it and just pull harder and that can hurt their shoulders long term. I use a martingale with my dog that doesn’t pull because she knows how to back out of a regular collar. It’s not meant to be a training tool.

 

[joppa123]

@p4m3l4 thank you for explaining so well about front attach harness (i bought one for my brother's dog this week and i was worried about the shoulder damage)

 

[saab03]

@icanspellthornwell No. The martingale deals with problem after they jump, doesn’t teach them not to jump.

 

[eve_marie]

@christopherb Hitting a dog and alpha rolling are nothing like your other examples. Spray bottles are also basically useless, but it's still not hitting your dog and alpha rolling.

 

[christopherb]

@eve_marie It's not up to humans whether they're like each other. It's about how aversive the dog finds them.

I actually intentionally included hitting your dog to hopefully inspire aversives users to introspect about why they'd recoil in horror at that but happily use other aversive methods that may scare the dog exactly as much.

 

[eve_marie]

@christopherb

It’s not up to humans whether they’re like each other. It’s about how aversive the dog finds them.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

recoil in horror

I'm nowhere near recoiling in horror. It's not about scaring the dog, and I don't think you know what you're talking about.

I feel I have a different interpretation of what reactivity actually means.

 

[christopherb]

@eve_marie Whether something is aversive, and the degree to which it is, is not decided by the person applying the punishment. It's determined by the feelings of the dog receiving it. It's the exact same premise as tailoring your reward to what the individual dog actually likes.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Then I guess we're done here!

 

[p4m3l4]

@eve_marie That’s true in the sense that hitting and rolling the the shht finger poke that Cesar Milan does are seriously scary and often cause dogs to bite. Spray bottles aren’t as likely to cause biting, but they train through intimidation or fear or at best annoyance and that’s not building the kind of relationship you should want with your dog. It also doesn’t teach the dog what behavior to do instead of barking or whatever behavior is being corrected.

 

[joppa123]

@christopherb Is telling them a firm "no" without screaming also one of them? (just im case: I'm not trying to be ironic by asking this, I've never had a dog and I've recently -3 days ago-joined this reddit community, so I'm trying to read and inform myself as much as possible so I am a good pseudo owner -it's my brother's puppy that I help with, not my dog but I spent a lot of time with him-)

 

[christopherb]

@joppa123 It really depends on how the dog takes it. Since aversion is a feeling/reaction, the dog determines what's aversive and how aversive it is. If the dog reacts with shock, fear, or appeasement behavior when you say "no", it's likely scaring them and is therefore aversive and psychologically intimidating. If the dog moreso just looks at you and then stops doing the activity (like mine) then it's more of a redirection cue than an aversive correction.

In general, it's preferred to redirect a dog onto something you DO want them to do than to tell them "no" for doing something you DON'T want, since it's easier for dogs to understand, but judicious use of "no" as a blanket redirection cue can be useful too.

 

[joppa123]

@christopherb Oh, thank you so much for responding! My brother's takes the "no" like you described yours did. I was worried it was wrong since neither of us (my brother and I) have experience with dogs ( we never had pets growing up) and I spent a lot of time with the puppy (when my brother has to stay for a long time at work or takes a short vacation).
Since I've read it here I've been doing the do commands+treat when I know he'll react to a dog barking at him ( dogs in balconies or behind doors when we go out) and it's working better than my saying no to him so he doesn't bark and lunge like crazy at the other dogs. It's been very recent but it's working so I completely get what you said by "something you want him to do" instead of focusing in the "no"