Update!

[joshuawithmartin]

Hi all,

I just wanted to highlight some new rules we've added that are now in the sidebar. Rules 4, 5, and 7 are new additions that we've just added.

Rules 4 and 7 are to verbalize our efforts to combat commenters and brigaders from hateful communities outside of this subreddit. If the wording looks familiar, its because Rule 4 is borrowed from the r/dogs rules - thank you r/dogs mods for sharing your phrasing with us!

Rule 5 more reiterates what we state in our description in regards to the LIMA approach.

Thank you for being part of this subreddit and helping us keep it a kind support community!

 

[christopherb]

@joshuawithmartin Typo FYI:

PIMA does not support the use of aversive tools and methods

 

[joshuawithmartin]

@christopherb Ohh thank you!

 

[bef]

@joshuawithmartin Can i just say.....how much i appreciate the Mods on clamping down on aversive methods for reactive dogs? & Really trying hard to back the science behind R+ and LIMA? we have 88,000 users here now being able to learn about LIMA and the knowledge of teaching without force. that is a STAGERING amount of dog owners.

I have noticed a general trend towards non-aversive methods for training and a general better acceptance of it. No more arguments about leash jerking, leash pops, prong collars. Less arguments about BAT/BMT , LAT, desensitization, counter conditioning,

Of all dog related subreddits...THIS is the place that really needs it.
I have personally changed so much of my outlook on my dogs wellbeing because of LIMA. I know it's hard to change because i went from R+, to Balanced, and back to R+ again.

And my dog is all the better for it. Of course, i will continue to look at the topic from a scientific point of view, and things can change in behavioural sciences the more we know...but boy am i glad that there is less hesitance now. I'm all for being open minded and looking at the facts and studies and backing it with logical and critical thinking.

Now that i finally really understand R+ and the science behind it.... I'm hoping those still using balanced methods will change their mind. It truly is a wonderful scientific topic & i cannot wait to learn more.

 

[kamienzen]

@christopherb Can you define aversive tools please.

 

[eront]

@kamienzen Prongs, ecollars, slip leads, leash pops, basically forms of -R/+P.

 

[christopherb]

@kamienzen Tools and training methods that modify behavior by discomfort, pain, fear, and physical or psychological intimidation. Basically the R- (negative reinforcement) and P+ (positive punishment) quadrants.

Examples would be prong collars, spray bottles, shouting "no", leash corrections, hitting a dog, shock collars, and alpha-rolling.

 

[motherofsix]

@christopherb A “gentle” leader should fall under this category if that’s the definition.

 

[christopherb]

@motherofsix I agree. The mods of r/Dogtraining don't.

 

[icanspellthornwell]

@christopherb would a martingale collar be a better alternative to prongs? I've been wanting to move away from using it, but how does one integrate the change without anxiety. she grows very alert in public to about everything and struggles to listen on a martingale. what are steps I can take to better correct her without the use of a prong?

 

[christopherb]

@icanspellthornwell Great question.

They're not really the same category of equipment, so it makes sense that she doesn't have the same reaction. A martingale, when fitted correctly, shouldn't really affect a dog's behavior, because it shouldn't hurt (or feel especially good). In other words, it should be just like wearing a flat collar in terms of reward/punishment, but safer than a flat collar for escape artists.

A mindset change from "how can I correct the wrong behavior" to "how can I encourage the right behavior" is probably the most key thing here.

Bring some super high value treats with you on walks. I'm talking cheese, hot dogs, liver, stuff like that. If she won't take the high value treats, she's not just alert, she's what's called "over threshold" -- when a dog is over threshold, they can't learn productively, with or without the prong. What they can learn is to be more and more afraid if the thing they're looking at is associated with pain in their neck.

For loose leash walking, there are two common methods. One is to reward slack in the leash, the other is to remove the reward of forward progress when the leash is taut. You can judge each technique's efficacy with your dog. Some dogs get really frustrated by the P- version, some dogs make extremely slow progress with just the R+ version. A combination approach works for many dogs. You may have to reward very frequently at first. I also recommend having some longline time/sniffy walks where she's allowed to lead/pull. For my dog, I distinguish them by having his leash clipped to the back clip of his harness when he's allowed to pull. He got the concept surprisingly quickly.

Another thing to look up is the Premack principle. The idea is that the dog is more willing to engage in an unlikely (in terms of natural inclination) behavior, such as nicely walking, if it is followed by a likely behavior, such as sniffing, treeing squirrels, etc. You can use the Premack principle for all sorts of stuff! Personally, I've managed to even train my super high prey drive sighthound to have leash slack around squirrels by using this principle. He knows he only gets to chase the squirrel if he keeps the leash slack until I say go.

 

[crose90]

@christopherb Excellently put!

 

[icanspellthornwell]

@christopherb I never knew about the Premack principle, but apparently I've been doing it the whole time with her. I adopted her out back in December after my first dog died, and I started her out with a no pull harness with two leads because that's how I taught my first dog. I had to go to a flat collar, but she pulled so much she choked herself and I didn't like that. Tried a gentle leader but she managed to pull it from her muzzle and nearly took off running. I was really hesitant on using a prong, but I let my previous trainer convince me and they taught me how to use one properly, I guess. I'm getting to the point in her training though where I'm finding that I might be too dependent on the prong (she's only been using it for maybe twoish months- three tops), and I want to shift to the martingale I have.

My biggest problem with her though is her alertness (?) when dogs are around. I've had to leave my previous trainer and find a new one because she wanted me to simply put a muzzle on my dog and let her interact with other dogs without a leash, and that made me uncomfortable. My current trainer seems to be really good but I have a hard time understanding what she teaches me and I can tell she gets frustrated with me when I need extra guidance. I want to get her to a point where she doesn't alert so hard to dogs that she hits that "over threshold" because you mentioned that and that's something I've seen in her when it happens. I don't know if it's aggression or if it's frustration or what because no trainer can seem to give me a straight answer. She's my first reactive dog (i guess you can call her that? I'm not sure anymore), since my first dog was an all around chill dog who didn't have a care in the world.

She's great with people, great on walks, she acts a little anxious in public but still doesn't act out. It's just the sight of dogs that gets her. And me because I guess she can sense my mild anxiety when I see a dog just like she does.

Either way, I really appreciate the reply and sorry for my long reply. I'm really gonna take it into consideration and look more into LIMA and other ways I can be better for her.

 

[eve_marie]

@icanspellthornwell

I want to get her to a point where she doesn’t alert so hard to dogs that she hits that “over threshold” because you mentioned that and that’s something I’ve seen in her when it happens. I don’t know if it’s aggression or if it’s frustration or what because no trainer can seem to give me a straight answer.

Your dog is loading long before she finally reacts. You need to watch her body language and recognize what's happening long before she has the obvious reaction.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@icanspellthornwell

My current trainer seems to be really good but I have a hard time understanding what she teaches me and I can tell she gets frustrated with me when I need extra guidance.

You may want to look for another trainer. Can your vet recommend one? Your trainer's job is to teach you how to train your dog. If they won't explain in a way that helps you then they aren't doing their job.

 

[icanspellthornwell]

@imagebeastmarkbeast I have a vet appointment today and I'm planning on asking about it. I've been looking around but I'm not finding one that I like so I'm hoping that my vet will give me what I need.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@icanspellthornwell If you can give a general location people here may be able to help.

 

[belle_me777]

@icanspellthornwell I just wanted to chime in and say it sounds like you are really working the right steps and asking all the right questions here!!

We have a dog-reactive and fear-reactive doggo and aside from the situations where we can get in sight of a dog but at the right distance to work on counter-conditioning, we circuit our route so that we always have a quick escape if we see another dog. Down a side street, into a parking lot, quick u-turn, all of 'em - and in this way we (mostly) avoid the flip-outs and the sight of another dog. On weekends we often hit industrial parks around the outside of the city so we can see some nice trees while not seeing any other dogs.

We also know that, for our girl, once she flips out at the sight of a dog we head back towards the house because she'll need a cool down period to get her back on track for the day.

None of those things might be possible for you, but just in case!

 

[icanspellthornwell]

@belle_me777 my Blue is the same way. she alerts heavy to dogs and she's terrified of cars and with the car aspect, we've been working well with it. she knows not to go into the road and she's learning that cars aren't too bad bc I'll keep her safe but she still has her moments.

dogs are a different thing bc she presents so many cues when she sees one that I'm always confused about if shes aggressive or frustrated or just. hyperfixated bc that's a dog. i usually don't push it so we turn around and the whole out of sight out of mind works really well for her so. I guess it's just the baby steps huh

she's good with my mom's dog thru the gates and doors. we haven't let them be introduced fully yet. she loves him tho bc she's always wagging her tail when she sees him. I think she's just too intense for life haha

 

[glorygirl16]

@icanspellthornwell I've got a boy who's also kind of borderline reactive so I feel you on a lot of this. I've had him a year and a half longer and we've made a lot of progress, still not 100 percent.

What breed(ish?) is yours and how old? My guy is a mutt but def with some working dogs in him, and he's just (finally) past adolescence, and I think that's a lot of where the "reactivity" is/was coming from. I really try to give him enough outlets but I don't think I'll ever be able to give him quite what he needs. And I'm slowly learning that some "outlets" just amp him up and so to incorporate impulse control (e.g., having him sit-stay as I throw the ball every so often instead of letting him mindlessly chase it again and again).

What made you switch from the harness? I went back and forth a lot on collars vs harnesses honestly. I have one with a back hook and a front hook and just occasionally use the front one when I really can't handle the pulling (I'm still fighting the loose leash walking battle, but it is slowly getting better.) He walks more nicely on a collar and I do hook the leash there when we're in a store or something where I want a lil more control over his head, but I worry about him hurting his neck on normal walks when he still lunges occasionally. There's also a school of thought that more freedom of movement (nonrestrictive harness, longer leash) makes dogs feel more safe and decreases reactivity.

I think you def made the right call switching trainers. Idk about your dog, but mine's reactivity is fear-based, and I feel like that would just make him more afraid. I've focused on instead trying to make it clear that he can relax because I'll basically play bodyguard and not let another dog come up to him, and most importantly, will always let him walk away when he's done saying hi to a friend (even if it's basically immediately and so feels abrupt and rude to me lol)

Decompression walks have also been great; I made a big push to incorporate them more lately and I really think they've helped reactivity and just overall improved our bond and his quality of life.

I know it's weird being on the border of reactivity with so much conflicting information out there, but it sounds like you're doing your best and really committed to making the best life for her.