Torn on BE for my reactive puppy

[helpneededbub]

Hi all - my partner and I have had our Doberman mix puppy since she was 8 weeks and from day 1, something wasn’t quite right. She never liked being pet, growled at us when we’d touch her, try to pick her up (a must for unvaccinated puppies) or go near her stuff. The aggression has also been pretty indiscriminate - strangers, other dogs, even towards us - and the triggers have never been super predictable/include a huge variety of stimuli. She also trigger stacks soooo fast and can go over threshold in a matter of seconds.

She’s now ~5 months old and FWIW, some things have improved: when it’s on her terms, she can be affectionate at times (we still don’t approach her though). We’ve worked with a trainer to make her feel more comfortable with basic handling needs (e.g. putting on her leash)/resource guarding, and we’ve connected with a behaviorist and have her on antidepressants and anti anxiety meds. But by in large, she’s either the same or has regressed. This has included a couple of incidents where she has lunged at me or my partner (thankfully, she has mostly missed so far save for small cuts). This included an instance of trying to get her out of the car once post-vet (she hates the vet) where she was so aggressive we ended up just standing beside our car for an hour waiting for her to get out herself.

We live in a city environment and unfortunately, aren’t able to work remotely in our current roles. We believe she would have a better/happier chance at life in a rural living situation that invites fewer triggers on a day to day (based on a brief weekend we spent outside the city with her) but we’re also conscious that she feels like a liability to rehome bc she’s aggressive towards strangers AND owners, and would really require someone who is as hyper aware about managing her as we are.

Our immediate circle doesn’t present any clear options for rehoming which leaves us with 1) continuing to gut this out and hope this changes, 2) rehoming via shelters (which we’ve been strongly advised not to do by her behaviorist) or 3) BE.

In the moments where she is acting normally, she is the most wonderful, kindhearted dog. She is goofy and playful and all the amazing things you hear about Dobermans and puppies generally. The idea of putting down a dog, especially one so young shatters me, but equally, she’s been given a very guarded prognosis for improvement given most behavior issues start when their hormones kick in (and she isn’t even at that age).

She hasn’t had a level 4 bite yet but like, does someone need to end up seriously hurt before we make that choice? Welcome any thoughts on what to do… we don’t want to to give up on her, but we also don’t feel safe with her or safe with the idea of giving her to another person.

 

[corydm27]

@helpneededbub I am sorry you’re in this position, but I would tend to listen to the vet. I think rehoming just passes the problem off to someone else and is so stressful for the dog it worsens their behavior. It is highly unusual for a puppy that young to be displaying aggression that severe. She will become a big dog and like you say, you shouldn’t wait until someone needs stitches to know this situation is bad. If neither you nor the vet sees any indication of improvement, it probably won’t magically resolve with adulthood.

This situation sucks all around and I agree that severe behavioral issues at such a young age is likely genetic and not based on environment and experiences.

 

[bella_lee]

@helpneededbub This is so hard, but if you’re working with a fully qualified veterinary behaviorist I would trust their opinion over Reddit. Puppies are assholes that bite and growl (my perfectly normal pup just went apeshit over me trying to brush her). But if a behaviorist is this concerned about her I’m assuming there is context for this behavior that is way outside the realm of normal puppy frustration intolerance, overstimulation, and poor bite inhibition. If it were me I imagine I’d have trouble not knowing who she becomes as she matures and her hormones level out. But you are the ones who’s skin is literally at stake here and you’ve already consulted the experts. If and when you hit the point of knowing you’ve given it all you reasonably can, behavioral euthanasia is a humane option—and one I’d definitely choose over giving her back to the shelter.

 

[readyforwhatcomes]

@bella_lee RT. It sounds like you have professionals advising BE. Some puppies are just wired wrong

I actually work on a farm. They farmer has kids. We have guests frequently. I don’t know how to politely say this - but a farmer would have put this dog down like they would an aggressive bull. Farmers know when an animal has an undesirable trait and should be put down.

 

[john55107]

@readyforwhatcomes I can't imagine anyone living in a rural environment would adopt this dog either. I see that a lot "oh maybe someone living or in the country will adopt this reactive dog". Just because they live in a rural area doesn't mean the dog won't be living with people and still have to get on a leash, go to the vet etc. Seems the dog would have even more freedom to potentially harm other people and animals. I don't know, just something I think about when I see it on a lie of posts. I'm no expert.

 

[ferrick]

@john55107 It also makes a difference the kind of behavioral reactivity. If it's a LGD that suddenly had to move to a condo and now has issues that someone is trying to rehome, a rural person will take it in a heartbeat to give it a chance. But a Dobie at 5 months? Rural people don't want Dobies in the first place usually unfortunately..

 

[john55107]

@ferrick That's a great point. In specific situations, it could be a good solution. Probably not for the majority of reactive dogs, certainly not this one.

 

[readyforwhatcomes]

@john55107 People don’t understand that rural people with livestock tend to treat their pet cats and dogs similarly to how livestock is treated. It goes back to the concept that a lot of people don’t know where their food comes from. When a cow has a broken leg - most farmers don’t pay to fix it. The cow is put down. That also applies to an overly aggressive cow. An aggressive cow can kill other animals and people and damage property. So aggressive cows are put down. This same thing applies to farm dogs. If a farm dog keeps killing chickens - the dog gets put down. If the farm dog keeps biting humans unprovoked due to reactivity and aggression - that dog is put down faster than a Doberman in a condo who’s owner wants to spend $3k on training.

 

[janie1242]

@readyforwhatcomes While I’m sure there are some people like this, it’s definitely not the norm. I have lived in multiple farm/rural areas and the vast majority of farmers go to great lengths to care for livestock and especially pets, including expensive vet bills, training, care, feeding, etc. Yours is a pretty harmful sterotype.

One thing I will say, is that because farmers may deal with many animals, species, etc. there does tend to be a greater understanding of animal welfare and knowing when the most compassionate solution may be euthanasia.

Edit: punctuation

 

[readyforwhatcomes]

@janie1242 I visit multiple reputable farms per day for work and ag animals are absolutely NOT given the same amount of care as a dog in an affluent family. Absolutely not. You are way out of touch here. I am not sure if you’re referring to literal horse racing breeders - but in ag you make business decisions. I believe your view is entitled, privileged, close-minded, and classist.

 

[bragar]

@readyforwhatcomes I also live on a farm and second this. The people going to crazy lengths like buying prosthetic legs for their injured livestock are hobby farmers, someone who raises livestock for a living would know that the animal will have no quality of life and euthanasia is the best answer. Prior to getting into farming I spent an enormous amount on cancer treatment for a dog, today I would make a different choice. Investment in an animal is made based on the value and potential of that animal along with its chances for a good quality of life. I'll pay the vet to stitch up a dairy goat that produces well and has plenty of years left, but maybe not for the old one that is going to have a long and difficult recovery. I wouldn't pay for cancer treatment to get my dog another year of life again, even my very best working dog.

The idea that euthanasia is the worst case scenario and an unlimited amount of time and money and blood should be spent to avoid it is very much a city thing.

 

[janie1242]

@readyforwhatcomes Rural/farm living is not the solution for reactive dogs. Farms still have people/strangers, most have other pets, and there is just a different set o up p stimuli (livestock, noise, equipment, etc.) I happen to have (and still have) multiple reactive rescues, and live on a farm, but it still comes with similar challenges, just in a bigger space.

Sometimes, BE is just the right choice and the most compassionate solution.

 

[ferrick]

@janie1242 Yea, the farm is for hyper dogs or dogs that were bred to work and are having issues in the city. (LGD, herding dogs that didn't adjust well to city life) not for HA or AA dogs.

 

[huey507]

@helpneededbub As a vet behaviorist once said to me about choosing BE for my aggressive dog, they said “there are LOTS of dogs out there, lots of really happy, really nice dogs that would love your affection and companionship. There are also lots of unwell dogs out there, whether it be from bad genetics or poor development, and sometimes it’s best for the greater whole to let the unwell dogs go. For every unwell dog that a human is pouring time and energy into, there are many good dogs being killed in shelters everyday because too much energy is going into keeping unwell dogs.”

In other words, your efforts could be being put into a dog that isn’t unwell, your efforts could be put into a good dog and truly be saving a good dog from unnecessary killing.

 

[readyforwhatcomes]

@huey507 This comment should be higher

Some people here are suggesting these people tough it out for months with an aggressive, unpredictable dog. So - living hell on earth and hoping magically one day this dogs entire demeanor (we aren’t just talking about biting temper tantrums here folks) changes. It’s cruel to put that advice on another human.

I love dogs more than people. But some people aren’t worth wasting your energy on. So you walk away and cut them from your lives. If they’re a danger to others, you call the police.

You can’t do that with dogs. If you pass it on, that dog will be miserable and euthanized in a shelter eventually. You need to ask yourself - what are the chances you can find someone who will go to greater lengths for your dog? I don’t think you will. I think you’re going above and beyond and being fantastic dog parents and you deserve a dog that will flourish with the life you’re willing to provide. That is not this dog. And it’s cruel to put this dog anywhere else because it will ultimately end up being put down.