Thoughts on upstate academy method?

[muin496]

Hi all, I have a GSD mix who is almost a year old. When i got her in January she was fearful of dogs so we worked hard to give her positive experiences and she now LOVES dogs. To the point that she will become easily overstimulated if there’s a dog way down the street and whine and pull to meet it. I try and distract her with food but there’s nothing more valuable to her than a dog—she’ll just ignore the food. I’ll try and move her away but can’t always anticipate a dog popping up and me moving her away from the stimulus at that point looks more like me forcibly dragging her. Also her threshold seems to be getting lower and lower. I feel like this is escalating and I’m quite concerned she is turning into a frustrated greeter.

So my partner is wanting to get a slip lead and try the method described in the video of “popping” her when she pulls. Can I get some second opinions on this? Is a slip lead really safe for her throat when used correctly? Should I lower my expectations for a dog her age? My understanding is that using aversive training methods often creates or exacerbates leash reactivity…then again I do feel like positive reinforcement alone is failing her. I wanted to post this here bc you all have actual experience with reactivity and i know this will immediately get shot down in dog training subreddits

 

[prayerorprayer]

@muin496 The potential downside with using an aversive to correct reactivity, is that the dog may learn to associate the negative stimulus with the trigger, which ingrains for them that other dogs are bad/scary. It may turn your frustrated greeter into a dog aggressive or fear-reactivity pup. I know it has worked for some people, especially some who deal with frustrated greeter stuff, but it can go sideways, too. Each dog is different.

 

[coder]

@prayerorprayer ^ this. I know quite a few people who have had success ( yes, even long term ) with these methods, but you need to be careful. It can go south way fast depending on the dog, introduction to stimulus, and handler. I’ve also seen some dogs become more reactive. Also this subreddit is against those methods, so you most likely won’t find any supporters for slip leads or Upstate Academy methods here.

 

[jlaw260]

@muin496 I would caution against balanced training methods/using aversive tools and techniques for the reasons others have already outlined. But I will add my own two cents: of balanced trainers, Tom Davis is a poor example. His main talent is in showmanship and marketing, certainly not in dog training.

 

[eront]

@muin496 He's pretty awful and you should be hiring a trainer at this point. Do not try these methods without consulting a trainer with IAABC accreditation and then a veterinary behaviorist.

Upstate is pretty terrible and will just escalate corrections basically instead of actually solving the root. I know somebody with a reactive dog who did a board and train with him and the dog just got worse.

And, no, it's not safe.

 

[muin496]

@eront I hear you and we have so far been working with a R+ only trainer and have her in R+ only obedience classes. I feel like distracting the dog with food doesn’t get to the root of the problem. Like what Tom Davis says in the video-if you have a kid who is misbehaving in certain situations you’re not going to distract them and avoid those situations bc the kid then never learns what is appropriate and what is not. The root of the problem is that she loves dogs and is super stoked to go meet them, but her leash manners go out the window when she is that excited. It seems reasonable to me to teach my dog what behavior is “wrong” so long as I’ve first shown her clearly what behavior is “right.”

 

[eront]

@muin496 What certifications did the trainer have? Not all force-free trainers are created equally.

I feel like distracting the dog with food doesn’t get to the root of the problem

It doesn't, but not all force-free training is just distracting with food. I have a reactive dog myself who used to launch his 95lb ass into traffic when he saw a car or a bus. I changed it to this. Does this look like distraction? Because, here he's making an active choice to engage with me here instead of react and is not being distracted with food. We were still early-on in the training here so he still got rewards every time and that is now on an intermittent schedule.

If you have a misbehaving child in a situation, you don't choke them with a slip lead or smack them upside the head (no, I'm not accusing you of doing this with the dog, using a common +P method I see in the grocery store with tantrum-y children), you work out the cause and resolve it. +P has been shown to be very problematic in child rearing as well.

You need a trainer with IAABC accreditation, not a slip lead. You could cause your dog to become aggressive with your insistence on teaching your dog that it's "wrong".

 

[muin496]

@eront She was a “Karen Pryor certified training partner” and did fenzi dog sports. Im not sure if she had IAABC accreditation.

You’re clearly doing great work with your dog. Did you ever have an issue with him not accepting food when overstimulated and what did you do? Do you have any tips beyond food rewards? My trainer told me to keep my dog moving rather than put her in a sit so that she doesn’t load, but I haven’t had any success getting her moving without dragging her by the leash, which is aversive in and of itself.

 

[eront]

@muin496 I'd definitely work with somebody with IAABC. KPAs tend to be good, but reactivity can be a weak point. A lot of trainers who don't have IAABC accreditation don't understand behavior. Those trainers should be referring out, but many will fail to recognize that.

I personally have had issues where he won't take food, it's rare though, but mainly because I've been working with reactivity for longer than I've had this dog and generally know when to get out of dodge vs where to keep trying to work. I generally move away with the initial sign that the dog may be loading.

It is advised to keep the dog moving to not load, but, she should be helping you manage these situations rather than just telling you that. If she won't move but will sit, then, will she hand touch? Will she take a hot dog? String cheese? Spray cheese?

What is your dog's threshold?

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@muin496 Look at it like this: it's not distraction, it's redirection. Instead of coming in hot with an aversive and saying "don't do that!!" you are instead guiding your dog into what you want them to do and rewarding that behavior in place of the reactive one.

It takes a bit more finesse, and you do have to pay attention to thresholds, especially starting out. But overall it will build a much better foundation.

 

[booboo222]

@muin496

Like what Tom Davis says in the video-if you have a kid who is misbehaving in certain situations you’re not going to distract them and avoid those situations bc the kid then never learns what is appropriate and what is not.

Without watching the video (because I'd rather punch myself in the face than watch Tom Davis) here's what I find baffling... If you have a kid who is misbehaving in certain situations, you sure as shit aren't going to address the root of the problem (and reinforce self regulation/confidence in more appropriate decision making) by smacking them either. But trainers who believe in aversives/quadrant based learning are really good at setting up things that sound, kind of logical and reasonable, but are actually absolute bullshit.

It's the old "I'm not going to give a six year old who is having a tantrum a yummy treat to calm them down, because a tantrum is bad behaviour and they need to know it's not acceptable so I will punish them so they learn consequences" but here's the thing... A tantrum is much like a "reaction", it's all just an outward expression of big feelings that a kid doesn't have the tools to cope with yet, it's generally rooted in frustration or overstimulation, giving them a smack to resolve the outward behaviour is just adding more frustration to their emotional state. The solution is way before the tantrum, how are you managing the environment around the child and watching for their cues to keep them in a more stable and calm mind state, once they're having a tantrum it's on you to understand that this is an emotion to be guided through and you can either do that by punishing them for not behaving "right" and hoping it scares them enough to prevent future tantrums, or by gently guiding them through the feelings and showing them that you are a safe person who will support and understand them when they need it, then circle back around and reinforce all the times they're doing the things we find more desirable so they have the future tools they need to make better choices. Rinse. Repeat.

I manage humans for a living, errorless learning has a huge amount of research behind it, and I can honestly tell you produces the most amazing results both in the large amount of people I have worked with across my career, and also the dogs I rehabilitate through our rescue. Science tells us that learners who are taught with corrections are more likely to perform exactly the behaviour they are asked, but generally require a lot more handling and direction because they experience a level of discomfort when making a mistake; those taught without corrections offer a lot more behaviours and have far higher discretionary effort because they are confident to try and get things wrong from time to time.

Sorry, after that absolute tangent, TL;DR - TikTokTrainers who produce dazzlingly fast results are very rarely relying on science based humane methods to set long term and sustainable behavioural modification. Take what they have to say with a liberal grain of salt, and remember every single dog is an individual who deserves to have the function of their behaviour assessed, and addressed in a way that is comfortable for them and their specific needs.

 

[mentallydiseasedapostate]

@muin496 I have a GSD who has dog reactivity, and like your's won't take food if there's a dog nearby. I didn't really know what I what doing, so I ended up using the leash "popping" and it really only made her more antsy and frustrated on the leash. Like WAY more reactive and eager to lunge on her leash. Definitely wouldn't recommend it.

I give her constant treats (like every 2 seconds) to keep her in a heal. Start inside where she'll have the best and most consistent behaviour, then take it outside as you progress. Whenever she pulls ahead or lunges at another dog I stop and shuffle backwards a bit and get her to sit next to me for a few seconds and rub her tummy (seems to calm her a bit), then keep going or turn around and take a few steps in the other direction until she's calmed down again.

 

[muin496]

@mentallydiseasedapostate Thank you I appreciate this advice!

 

[mykell]

@muin496 I used to follow some of this trainer’s advice- fucking awful and it seriously hurt my relationship with my dog.

Food- what have you tried? What is your typical feeding routine? Also worth noting that sometimes it takes a bit to train a dog to take food outside the home.

 

[muin496]

@mykell So initially we were having her work for her kibble and doing training inside for her meals. She has since stopped taking the kibble (still follows commands indoors but less enthusiastically-so we switched to giving her something more high value sporadically while doing training). Then we started hiding her kibble around for search games. She loved this for a while but again has since lost interest in her kibble. Now we give her kibble in the bowl with a little water added. We’ll move her over to adult food soon so hopefully can find something she likes better. In terms of treats, I use boiled chicken and cheese when out on walks. Hot dogs upset her stomach. Whipped cream is her favorite thing so have used that outside as well. We also use Various store bought treats outside like Zukes but lately she has been rejecting them. Any advice on food/treats is appreciated! The last thing I want to do is hurt her or damage my relationship with her.

 

[mykell]

@muin496 Awesome thanks for all the info!! When you do introduce the new food, I’d suggest being super enthusiastic during training and hopefully the excitement will stick for both of you. Love the chicken, cheese, whip cream! For my pup, I use True Chews (variety of flavors) and FreshPet that you can get at petsmart. Soft and stinky tends to catch most dogs attention (I work with doggos).

Might be worthwhile to check out Grisha Stewart’s website and her class on frustrated greeters (I’ve only taken the fear reactive class). Denise Fenzi’s IG sometimes has great content on decreasing arousal too.

Also, what are walks like/how often do you walk? Are you in a busy neighborhood or park? How many dogs do you typically see?

 

[muin496]

@mykell Thank you for this info I appreciate your help. I will look into the grisha Stewart class.

We walk her 4 times a day for about an hour each. So far we’ve been using a harness or a martingale collar. I live right by a busy intersection but in a residential neighborhood and we will either walk around the neighborhood or walk along a river nearby. There’s a lot of dogs in the neighborhood and usually when I see one approaching from a distance I’ll ask her to sit and look at me, then let her approach and meet the dog so long as she’s not lunging. When she does lunge I stop and wait for her to sit and look at me before going forward. When she is really overstimulated I will not let her meet the dog and will cross the street. Sometimes she will lie down at this point.

Once a day my partner takes her along the river on a long leash and she has more freedom of movement -she loves these walks and often swims in the river. On her evening walk I start out by training her for ~30 min in a garage near my house that is usually completely empty. On most of our walks she is able to be loose leash (other than lunging at dogs) but stops every couple feet to sniff or roll around in peoples yards. Throughout all of this I am feeding her whenever she’s walking alongside me and absolutely lavishing her when she checks in w me (v rarely). I feel like so much of my time outside with her is telling her to drop nasty shit she’s picked up, telling her to come along when she’s been sniffing for a long time, and not letting her do things she wants to do and it is frustrating for me and her both.

 

[mykell]

@muin496 Gotcha! Do you have a yard by any chance? I’d consider cutting down walks for now (maybe 1 or 2 longer ones) and focusing a little more on enrichment activities at home so she’s not practicing the unwanted behaviors.

Also cautioning leashed greetings, even if the other dog guardian says it’s okay. It’s hard to predict what either dog will actually do up close and things can get dicy, especially if the other dog misinterprets/doesn’t like your dog’s behavior if too excited.

I LOVE that you have a long leash and do river/sniffy walks. As annoying as stopping to sniff can be, this is the key to creating a more calm walk (sniffing can decrease arousal as well as satisfy physical and mental stimulation needs). Sucks about mouthing/eating weird crap. “Leave it” and “drop it” cues are helpful here, and if it’s really bad/she likes dangerous stuff I might consider muzzling training to avoid unnecessary vet trips.

Might also be helpful to look up the engage-disengage game. You don’t necessarily need her to sit to play (depends on the dog and if she benefits from movement vs stillness), and when you build up a good history of this game she should be more focused on you/other things in the environment. 1-2-3 game is also helpful (many versions of this) as well as scatter feeds in the grass.

You’ve got a lot of great foundational work going and it’s awesome that you’re able to read when she’s too excited. Keep it up!!!

 

[stokinbusuk]

@muin496 You or your partner may wish to read the position statement on the humane training of dogs put out by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior.

Aversive training methods and tools such as choke, prong and shock collars force the dog to obey out of fear of pain or punishment. This method is faster but at a cost. This method does not teach the dog to offer the desired behaviors but represses and suppresses the behavior and can eventually lead to further and worsened aggression or behavioral issues. This method punishes the 'bad' behavior, which may lead to a negative association of triggers. Often you will see adult dogs that have been trained with aversive methods still wearing the 'tools of the trade' in order to reinforce the training. This method of training is short lived. Positive reinforcement training teaches the dog to offer the desired behaviors and rewards the dog for good behavior, and although slightly longer in learning time, the results are long lasting.

This series on leash reactivity should help you with her pulling issues. They have other videos and an online school.

Training requires patience, consistency, situational awareness and always having an emergency plan, and lots of good treats.

Of note: Tom Davis of Upstate Academy is a certified Pet Tech trainer, and I suspect much like another aversive trainer -- Cesar Millan is self-taught. Sarah Fraser of Instinct Dog Behavior and Training is a certified animal behavior specialist and certified trainer.

 

[forgiven2013]

@muin496 I think his methods might make people feel uncomfortable, but in the end it's not about human comfort but what dog needs. I believe some dogs might need to be forced into certain state to learn that they can for example calm down. I believe people who come to him did not succeed with treats and love and frankly this thread would be much smaller if positive methods worked as well as advertised. I believe some dogs need more tough love.

If you have kids and your kid is repeatedly acting up - either you are a parent who grabs child's arm and tell him to stop immediately either you are a parent who allows his child to scream for hours in a restaurant. It's up to you what kind of parent you are to a dog. It also depends what your dog needs.

Choose what's best for your dog and if you think he might benefit from those types of methods, then do it and don't allow people to bully you for it. There are people over there that choose to euthanize the dog because they feel uncomfortable using some tools and communicating NO to a dog.

With those balanced methods your dog will be stressed in the beginning but there is a huge chance that he will understand what you want for him quickly and learn to be calm in certain situations. My experience is that positive training didn't work and wasn't stress free for my dog so it is not in any way better