Slip collar v gentle lead? Or does anyone have good harness resources

[elevationgirl]

I adopted a reactive dog. I love reactive dogs. Always wanted to have the time to work with one and give them a safe life.

This guy about 3 weeks lost it and lunged pulling my shoulder slightly out of place (just to the point I had to get the chiro to pop it, nothing medically terrible). But it was at that point I realized I had to switch leads.

So I got the slip collar, we’re working on heel, to keep him from pulling. It’s been great. When we see other dogs I do a quick correction (try not to pull his head toward me, just tighten the lead). A few times he has lost it because another dog was too close, and we have to walk away, while he pulls at it and he starts to choke himself. Usually it happens once and he’s back at my side sitting to get treats. We’ve seen amazing progress, he knows to look at me when he sees a dog. He knows leave it a little better. He’s heeling a lot more.

So I was going to brag to the trainer. He really got concerned about it. Suggested if I can’t control him on the harness switch to the gentle lead. I explained we keep it on his head, not around his throat, and how it use it. He still seemed concerned.

Now, I am just now learning the difference between balanced and positive training. Realized I’ve been watching a balanced trainer on YouTube, and my trainer I pay is a positive trainer. I want to listen to my current trainer, but we live in an apartment his exercise is all our walks (play and sniffing not just walking), I can’t really wait for the amount of time it takes for positive training to work… so I’m torn and have a few questions.

1. Do I just misunderstand positive training? Anyone have resources on how to work with reactive dog using a non-balanced positive method?
2. What are you thoughts on slip collars? The way he lunges my thought is it’s either a slip or a prong. I cant risk him pulling the leash out of my hand.
3. Am I working with the harness wrong? Are there ways to use a harness that corrects without pulling or that keeps the dog from pulling me?
4. How much does any of this matter? The way he pulls he has bruised himself with the harness (was too hot and the lack of oxygen allowed for bruising when he began lunging), is it better to keep him lunging than the discomfort with the slip harness?

 

[lovingwife08]

@elevationgirl The issue with the slip lead and 'balanced 'training for reactivity is it doesn't actually solve the fear behind the reactions. It suppresses the behavior on the outside. But inside your dog is still afraid of dogs. And punishment/corrections will make it worse. Your dog sees a dog = choking from the slip. eg: if you were scared of spiders and screamed when you saw one and you were hit for screaming... you might stop screaming because you don't want to be hit. you're still scared of spiders. it's admirable you want to give reactive dogs safe lives... but they won't feel truly safe if they're punished when they see a dog or you put them in a situation where they're choking themselves on a slip lead.

we’re working on heel

The idea that reactive dogs need to heel is pretty problematic imo. If it's taught with only r+ dogs make the choice to walk next to the owner... great. But when it's trained with aversives and punishment

Decompression walks made the biggest difference with my dogs's reactivity. My dogs are 1000x less reactive when I walked them somewhere on a long line and there are things to sniff.

I can’t really wait for the amount of time it takes for positive training to work

You can actually get pretty quick results if you commit to management and doing under threshold training set ups. The most educated and credentialed trainers don't use aversives and punishment. Compare the credentials of a vet behaviorist, applied animal behaviorist, IAABC trainer, etc with 99% of 'balanced' trainers. There's a reason why aversives and punishment are not recommended. There are no quick fixes for humane and true behavior modification.

I know quite a few people (even professional trainers) who started with 'balanced' training and switched once they realized the damage it did to their dogs and once they learned about body language and realized how stressed their dogs were. If you're starting from a place of doubting positive training works.. then yeah it's probably not going to go well. No one can force you to switch, but I just hope you think about why the most educated and qualified trainers and behaviorists don't use the methods/tools you/balanced trainers use.

Your dog should not be going over threshold and lunging often. That's a sign to improve your management, antecedent arrangement and training. not use more aversive tools. If walks are stressful things need to change eg:

• Do a ton of indoor enrichment (eg: nosework) instead of walks
• walk at off hours (early/late) to avoid triggers
• drive to a different neighborhood
• drive to him to sniff spots/decompression walk spots
• train management skills (eg: magnet hand, paws up, emergency u turns, etc)
• anxiety medication from a vet/vet behaviorist

I have two large reactive dogs and some health problems but I still walk them on a back clip harness + long line. It's the most comfortable and safe imo. I never want pain/discomfort/punishment to be why I have control over them. I have control with management and training. I love back clip harnesses and long lines. But if your physical safety is seriously at risk then a front clip harness or a properly conditioned head halter is generally recommended over prongs/slips (and I highly recommend giving dogs decompression walks off leash/on a long line + harness as much as possible, it helps with reactivity/general behavior so much)

Look at that

Engage disengage

Desensitization and counter conditioning

Thresholds

The reactive dog

Walking your reactive dog

Helping your fearful dog navigate the world

Trigger stacking

Dog trainer certifications

Awesome books on reactivity:

BAT 2.0

Control Unleashed

LLW resources (not for reactivity lunging)

video 1

video 2

infographic

post

 

[elevationgirl]

@lovingwife08 My god! Thank you so much! This is exactly what I needed. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and time it took to craft this response.

 

[anonymosbeliever]

@elevationgirl I second this! We just adopted our 15-month old Willy (border collie, pitty, lab) about a month ago and quickly learned he has a very strong prey drive and is reactive, too. Really appreciate your thorough and well thought out response here as well as the links. Lots to learn!

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@lovingwife08 Wow... great post! If only I could upvote 100 times...

 

[bradlycatlin]

@elevationgirl Our trainer recommended this harness. https://www.blue-9.com/products/bhb

We only clip on the front. My dog is also reactive though she is under 30 pounds. If I stop walking to go the other direction because I spot a dog in the distance/if she tries to pull it just directs her back to me.

 

[elevationgirl]

@bradlycatlin That’s a good idea. Maybe I should trust the front clip more

 

[shawnmari]

@elevationgirl I use this harness with a corgi shaped like a tank ~35lbs and still growing and it works great! I never feel like he is going to slip out or wiggle away. It is really nice in that it has a front and back clip so you can use either one or use one of those double ended leashes and attach to both harness clips for extra control if your really worried and in a tight area.

 

[theanticrash]

@elevationgirl We got the 2 hounds freedom harness for our foster failure puppy. She is already doing so much better on walks. We also went back and got them for our other dogs, that are already good on walks, just for a little more security:

https://2houndsdesign.com/product-category/shop-now/freedom-no-pull-harness/

 

[timber59]

@elevationgirl Blue 9 harness has been the best for me. I’ve bought 3 so far (had him 9 months, 2 yo rescue. Also work with him indoors off lead with chicken or hot dog bits close to your side and walk around saying ‘walk with me’ and feed him little bits with your arm and hand tight to your side so that he has to have his nose right at your thigh. Practice this often and he will learn to do it outside. Buy a treat bag and fill it with said treats or other high value to continue the walking by your side outdoors. High value treats also for distracting him from triggers and lots of praise when he doesn’t react. It’s a process be patient.

 

[elevationgirl]

@timber59 Have the treat bag! I look truly insane with a huge Fanny pack of cheeses and liver treats, lol. I do like walk with me, I may try that. I know there’s some stigma with heel, but it’s more about the pups safety than what I want.

We’ve been doing it to the point he has to heel for certain portions but when we get to the lawns I know he loves to sniff around in, I release and let him sniff and be a dog. Maybe walk with me would be a better thing to call it.

 

[fickles]

@elevationgirl

1. What do you think you misunderstood about positive training? This reddit has a pretty extensive wiki on positive-reinforcement based training. Positive-Reinforcement training works because it takes time. It's supposed to. You get long lasting results with it.
2. Slip collars will harm the dog. You don't need a prong collar. I don't personally like gentle leaders, but is your trainer certified? It's worth it to have him show you how to walk.
3. Tools alone don't train out pulling. You need to train him not to pull, by that I mean, show him what you want instead. When there is tension on leash, stop moving until there is no tension. Or, turn around and walk the other direction. You can also teach him that when there is tension, he needs to come. Look up Kikopup on Youtube.
4. It all matters a good deal. The harness was probably ill fitting. What type of harness did you use? How tight was it? Was it no-pull? A freedom harness? etc.?

No it's not better to keep him lunging. You have used tools, but it doesn't sound like you have taught him not to pull. Reactive dogs take time, and so does positive reinforcement. It isn't a quick fix, because it actively works on changing emotions and encourages behavior, rather than simply punishing a dog for not doing what you want. You live in an apartment, and you've had him only three weeks. He can go out to potty, and you can work on training him how to walk properly on the leash, inside the apartment.

 

[elevationgirl]

@fickles It’s been 3 months. 3 weeks since a major incident that put him, another dog in danger, another person, and myself in danger. We’ve worked on not pulling quite a bit. We’ve had 30 minute walks turn into hour and a half walks because of the amount of time we spend. We still have those walks. But now we are working in the summer sun we had to trade off this pulling training to make sure he had plenty of new smells and plenty of room to do the things he enjoys on a walk that not only give up energy but enrich his mind. I’ve seen other resources from others that help thag and can change the way we walk though.

My original thought was positive training doesn’t necessarily teach the dog what not do, but only only what to do. So we’ve been doing that balance of making better decisions. If your body language starts changing and it looks like you’re about to lunge, there’s a quick correction. Followed by what we want him to do instead, like come, or nose work, or sit and catch. But I think I do misunderstand some of what is happening with positive.

And for 4, it’s a freedom harness. It’s fine, it was fit well had the trainer help me fit him in it. It’s the nature of how hard he lunges. To the point I’m going to a chiropractor because it hurts. There has to be some middle ground between, that’s why I took the approach from the balanced YouTubers. But I think that middle ground might be other things thanks to comments above.

 

[izzysmom]

@elevationgirl

My original thought was positive training does necessarily teach the dog what not to do, but only what to do.
But I think I do misunderstand some of what is happening with positive.

Not sure if you still think that way, however, positive training goes both ways! It replaces undesirable behaviors with desirable ones - the dog will find no reason to perform undesirable behavior if they get no reward for it. Therefore, you're teaching the dog that the undesirable behavior is what not to do, and the alternate behavior is what to do.

And kudos to you to admitting you may be misunderstanding things! Most wouldn't.

 

[fickles]

@elevationgirl Okay! Just wanted to check, because some people use prong collars, or aversive collars without trying to train out the behavior. I am sorry that you got injured, and that your dog lunges so insanely. I do hope you recover well. And I admire your willingness to learn, for what it's worth!

I understand that. The goal is usually to stop the behavior, sometimes using vocal corrections, and then showing them what you want them to do instead. So that part is correct. And there is a middle ground for sure! Some people have lots of success with gentle leaders/haltis, with a proper acclimation time as you show your dog what not to do. I do think your trainer can help show you how to do that as well.

 

[seriously21]

@elevationgirl I really like the Ruffwear Flagline harness for my reactive dog, having a handle on the harness can be very useful plus it has several different attachment points for the leash. I find that the extra set of straps helps keep it anchored if you're using the front attachment point.

I also like the Blue 9 Balance harness, but it's pretty minimalistic and shifts around a bit more on the body (nothing to do with fitting, there just isn't a lot of coverage so it's more likely to slide).

If you're looking for training recommendations, I think the reactive dog management course that Amy Cook offers through Fenzi Dog Sports Academy is an excellent resource. I think a lot of people focus on talking about changing behavior, which is great, but having an active management plan is absolutely essential imo for all of those moments when you're not actively working on counter-conditioning/desensitization. I'll link the class below, unfortunately it won't be running again until October. They have other good behavior classes as well, there's always something running each term.

https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/7467

 

[alexmertens]

@elevationgirl

1. Do I just misunderstand positive training? Anyone have resources on how to work with reactive dog using a non-balanced positive method?

Learn 5+ distraction games VERY solidly at home or in a distraction free environment, high value treats, sub out a portion of daily food for training with meat rewards. This is your toolkit when you see another dog. Give your dog another rewarding option, to engage with you instead of paying attention to other dogs. Another dog = nose to hand, paws on a rock, spin around, go through my legs in quick succession, then you reward by jogging calmly away from the other dog, rewarding with space. Stuff like that is positive only. Check out 'absolutedogs' they sell games & have packages tailored for reactivity.

1. What are you thoughts on slip collars? The way he lunges my thought is it’s either a slip or a prong. I cant risk him pulling the leash out of my hand.

Secure the leash better. Hoop over your wrist, the line leading out under your hand, which holds it with 3 back fingers & thumb, the pointer rests along the line for sensitivity & guiding. Add knots for grip. Use second hand to hold a knot 30cm down from the hoop. I could hold a charging newfie with that grip. Also look up center of gravity. Nail a good brace so you aren't pulled off balance. Local matial arts place can help you with that.

I use a slip on mine (non reactive) for walking at heel in busy places only. Wouldn't use on a reactive lunger because it can hurt their necks.
I've trained dogs where actually, a collar pop or extra tension set them off into a frenzy. Being pulled away physically puts them into a chest forward stance, which is fight mode & counterproductive.
On reactive dogs, I put them in harness & collar, alternating depending on what the situation needs. Buy a climbing caribiner, super useful for turning a slip leash into a clip leash for a harness

1. Am I working with the harness wrong? Are there ways to use a harness that corrects without pulling or that keeps the dog from pulling me?

Not pulling is something you have to train, some harnesses help a bit, but don't address the root of the issue which is lack of engagement with you. Dog pulls because he doesn't care if you are there or not, he's doing his own business & you are not on his mind at all. Work on engagement & relationship, far better results, takes time & patience.

1. How much does any of this matter? The way he pulls he has bruised himself with the harness (was too hot and the lack of oxygen allowed for bruising when he began lunging), is it better to keep him lunging than the discomfort with the slip harness?

If he can't be calm to the point he gets hurt, then you are walking him in the wrong places. Start with low distraction areas only. Work on engagement, on heel & break/go sniff. Reward heavily anytime he returns to you. Keep walks with you fun, with games, hunting snacks in grass, make yourself the absolute most interesting & rewarding thing around. Once you're solid, try an area with people but not dogs, if you get the same focus & engagement around distractions there you're on the right track. Eventually start walking in areas where you can see dogs in the distance, and see how engagement is, if they can see a dog, but still snap back to you to do a few games, you've msde good progress. Dog viewing is a project for 2 months from now.

Without laying all that groundwork first, months of practising games & distractions, you will stay on square one.

Training a reactive dogs is one of the most humbling things you can go through. It's hard, it's frustrating, it will ask a lot of patience & energy & willpower. It's very rewarding, but it takes so much time, focus, and research. Knowledge on the subject is the number one tool, so read every book you can.

 

[alexmertens]

And if you 'can't wait for the time it takes' then training a reactive dog is not for you.
This shit takes TIME.
Take your ego out of it, take bragging out of it, it will only cause misery and frustration.

Accept that it will take a long time, and that you will fail many times before you learn what works for this dog.

 

[elevationgirl]

@alexmertens When I say I can’t wait for the time, I more mean for his safety. We need to get him to a safe place that we can begin to do a lot of that positive work. Otherwise an explosive reaction could lead to him hurting another dog, or someone else. As he’s always knocked people over, and pulled my should out. So we want to do that positive reinforcement training, yes, but in a way that’s safe for the dog long term that doesn’t end in him hurting others or worse getting put down by the state.

 

[alexmertens]

@elevationgirl Don't take him around other dogs then, he's not ready. Do whatever you have to do to make that happen, otherwise you can't progress.

It takes time, and a whole lot of background work.

Force free or positive starts at the bottom, building a foundation of trust & a strong relationship, that then allows you to start slowly allowing your dog around exciting or stressful stimuli.

It's a long journey.

It's a fascinating learning journey though if you like studying & science.