Sell me on B.A.T for my bossy, reactive, enthusiastic dog

[joosten0603]

I've seen many comments that B.A.T. (version N.0) has been helpful in rehabilitating reactive or aggressive dogs, but, I haven't see many details in the comments or on her site or YouTube videos, yet she spends a lot of time talking about how to coil and manage the leash.

Before I buy the book, can anyone point to proof or explain why it's better than X R+ method? I get the impression that it's primarily gradual exposure therapy with setups? She has one video that is supposedly about dealing with aggression and it's mostly her walking the dog behind another dog and an abundance of how to wrap the leash.

I'm not slamming her. I'm genuinely interested, but have little evidence or information.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@joosten0603 I’m so in love with BAT it’s crazy.

First of all, the book is cheaper than one session with any trainer, so that’s a huge selling point for me lol.

The biggest thing that makes BAT different that other +R methods is that BAT doesn’t depend on treats. I spent years (at least it feels like it) trying to cc/ds my reactive dog, and what would continually happen is that he would get so focused on the treat in my hand until the other dog got too close, and then he would go way over thresh hold. If felt like it was zero to sixty. All the advice told me to reward him after he saw the other dog, and before he reacted, and I couldn’t do it because it felt like there was no time between.

The idea behind BAT is to start so far away that the dog can still control himself. The main reward is the environment. Since the environment is generally so much less stimulating, the dog notices the trigger much faster than with food or another reward. If he reacts, it’s a much lower level reaction than if he was closer.

My favorite thing is that you start with a dog at liberty, so you end with a dog who makes good decisions on his own. I did switch to LAT training for a bit, and when I skipped a treat, my dog started demand barking at me… which clearly wasn’t what I wanted so we switched back to training without food.

My other favorite thing about BAT is how easy it is. I was very comfortable implementing the strategies on my own, and I’m comfortable suggesting it to other people without the help of a trainer, which isn’t the case with most other strategies.

I had the help of a trainer when I used a prong, and I didn’t see any lasting changes in behavior. I’m sure it was a problem with me. I’m sure my technical wasn’t right, same again with LAT. I do believe the technique works, but I couldn’t make it work with the trainers I had.

BAT basically is walking behind other dogs at a distance. It’s really slow to start.

I think my first session I started 300ft away and ended at 225. My second session was 250 to 150, and my third session started 200 feet away and ended with my dog walking one foot away from a dog he had never met, choosing to ignore the other dog without reminders.

 

[joosten0603]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Thanks for the detailed, helpful response! That confirms my impression and also explains why she spends so much time talking about how to manage leashes and sells them on her site.
I had (paid) a behaviorist to recommend a very similar threshold approach, but using lots of treats as you described. I've considered joining local "pack walks" for conditioning like this, but then the ACD walk folded. Hmmm... Maybe I should start my own.

 

[nehemiah4ahaya]

@joosten0603 When I was training dogs I was lucky to have a fenced in dog park with a big field next to it, so I would always train my dogs in the field next to the dog park(I never go into the dog park). I could start as far away from the park as I needed to. When my dog is comfortable and cooperative at a distance, I can bring them a little closer a little at a time without following people walking their dogs.

 

[alice96]

@joosten0603 I love BAT 3, because it works on the dog learning to assess risk of dogs, and social manners, this transfers to other things as well - and it helps owners to learn how to be with their dog on walks in a different way - I’ve spent a lot of time trying to get owners to observe and act on what they see, ie dog pauses, to stop and wait till dog has sussed things out and is ready to approach, basically how to be a team mate with your dog, this is covered by BAT

 

[joosten0603]

@alice96

be a teammate with your dog

This. The dream.

Interesting perspective! Thanks. I did see her handout about consent between dog and owner and that's what piqued my interest.

Do you find that the risk they perceive decreases generally for other dogs and people? Not just the ones they encountered in conditioning?

 

[alice96]

@joosten0603 More than that, they learn the skill to assess risk, instead of the fight/flight reaction, they are able to work the steps of socialising, - I was working with a client this morning 3 months ago he couldn’t see a dog at the end of the road with out losing his shit, this morning we walked at a dog walking area, he add meetings (mutual sniffing) with 6 of the 7 dogs we past , 1 ignored him, of the 7 most it was a quick sniff and move on, 2 went right through the process to play, he’s 6 years old , he had a bad experience at 11 months old - for 5 years he had been reacting not assessing, his mum cries pretty much every session, happy tears for him as he trots along making friends

 

[joosten0603]

@alice96 Encouraging, thanks!

 

[tenderloin]

@joosten0603 I found some principles of BAT to be useful, but my main issue was that I found it could be difficult to have the "perfect" setups. Still, the book is inexpensive and there's a ton of great information in there. It's worth purchasing and reading even if you don't walk away doing everything in the book.

Personally I never found that one specific method worked best for my reactive dog, and I kind of took a mismash of several trainer's work into consideration in my training plan. Some of my favorite resources were Grisha Stewart's BAT program, Amy Cook's Play Way and Management for Reactive Dogs (both are Fenzi Dog Sports classes), and Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed books (specifically pattern games, LAT, etc.). Different situations with a reactive dog call for different kinds of interventions.

 

[joosten0603]

@tenderloin Thanks for the considered reply. I have the same concerns about achieving the setups, although we have enough dogs around that I can be stealthy about it to an extent.

I've been mishmashing it as well with mild aversive and R+ over the last 3.5 years that reactivity set in. I really want to focus on R+, but also to be realistic to keep us all safe. Thanks a lot for the suggestions. I just started browsing the Fenzi site so I appreciate the specific recommendations. I also meant to read McDevitt's book so thanks for the reminder!

 

[mykell]

@joosten0603 BAT’s awesome! You’re using distance as the primary reinforcer, which makes sense because it takes care of the dog’s social needs whereas food doesn’t fulfill that need. As your dog makes more and more “good” decisions, he should be able to facilitate interactions better on regular walks and need less micromanagement. BAT also promotes safety, exploration and relaxation. It looks boring but your dog shouldn’t be bored (hint, doggy should be doing lots of sniffing).

In BAT 3.0 Grisha also puts more focus on the dog-human relationship to lay down a positive foundation, doggy health, and a few newer leash skills. If you buy a BAT book make sure to get 2.0 instead of 1.0 because there are some stark differences.

A big portion of BAT is getting the leash handling skills down and following the dog, so I’m not surprised that’s what you’re mostly finding on YouTube. Sometimes students post their videos and there is a BAT group on Facebook to ask specific questions. I’m also working towards becoming a CBATI, so let me know if you need help

 

[joosten0603]

@mykell Thanks, that's really helpful! I've used some of Susan Garrett's games and I really like the idea of setting them up to make good decisions, though it requires planning and patience. How do you find the requirement for creating "setups"? Did you need to do that from the start or later on?

 

[mykell]

@joosten0603 Susan Garrett is awesome!

I hope I’m understanding your questions, and please set me straight if I didn’t answer them….

From what I’ve learned, it’s ideal to get the leash skills and relationship building (which it sounds like you’re already doing) underway first either at home or in a relatively empty area. Set ups are kind of like the “Big Boss” in a video game. If you are more familiar with thresholds and body language you could probably do a set up sooner than someone who is brand new to dog training.

Definitely scout multiple locations for foot traffic, off leash dogs, and features that make the landscape interesting (not flat, open fields). Location has been my biggest difficulty.

 

[joosten0603]

@mykell Yes, that helps.

not flat, open fields

Interesting. Sounds like I should get the book. We often train-play on long leads in open public spaces of varying size, and hike/bike on busy-ish trails, but I haven't done a great job of intentionally (and patiently) blending those. Thanks!

 

[joosten0603]

I bought the book, mostly because the ideas of using distance and the environment as their own rewards and of communicating better with my Kramer-like dog really appeal to me. Thanks to everyone here who took the time to specifically answer my question and offer their experience with B.A.T.

 

[chinyereukoha]

@joosten0603 Thank you OP for introducing me to this method. I've been trying to find the "right" approach I want to take for my dogs reactivity (mostly to dogs). Since I wasn't finding the common counter-conditioning/desensitization techniques of "see trigger, get food" to be very effective. I'm going to give this a try, even though I don't have a "helper" dog. I can at least try to attempt it in the parks, with random people walking their dogs.

 

[joosten0603]

@chinyereukoha Same. All the best!

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@joosten0603 You probably want to fully understand the roots of your dogs issues before jumping into what will or wont work. Furthermore it would likely be just one aspect of a multipronged approach when dealing with a dog. Whats the harm in educating ones self on an aspect of training even if it doesnt have an application in that instant its like a £10 book

 

[joosten0603]

@imagebeastmarkbeast I've done that. I'm asking for experienced reviews. You probably want to stop making assumptions about people and offer relevant replies.

 

[eve_marie]

@joosten0603 Unless I'm misunderstanding one of the 400 acronyms people use, is it not just threshold training? You start at a manageable distance and work you're way in.

Who is the she in this case? I'd like to watch the videos and see what justifies an entire book.