Question: Would/do ethical breeders ever intentionally choose a dog that doesn't perfectly fit the breed standard for coloration?
- Thread starter whitestonehope
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@whitestonehope Depending on what you mean by choosing a dog, for breeding or showing or selling or ....? Different answer for each of these.
And then you get into what 'slightly-off coloration' is for. Is it doesn't meet the standard for conformation ring or does it mean a color that should not exist in the breed. Many breeds have colors that are naturally produced but are not acceptable in the standard. The standard is what we prefer and genetics is what actually will exist. The two don't always match. In fact if the standard is specifying colors it probably means there are colors that exist they don't prefer.
For conformation you would not show a color that is a DQ, but may pick one that is a fault if the structure is ideal. It also goes the other way a lot, someone picks a nice looking but structurally poor dog to show. I always loved gray Tervurens but the color is a fault, harder than hell to finish but not a DQ. I did see one or two that finished I think.
For breeding they are used if they have traits that will improve the breeders line of dogs. Better head, shoulders, hips, tail placement, length of tail, and on and on.
For selling, well what should be done with them? Until about 4 years ago merle was a DQ in the Great Dane show ring, and about 25% of litters black and white danes could be merle. Someone started objecting to 'culling' them many years (decades) ago, so they had to be sold. Other breeds with other colors have different solutions.
The 'I am not a breeder but ... ' crowd will say if it is not in the standard it should not be bred, new breeders tend to be the same, older breeders with a line of dogs have learned that color is just one of the factors and have found ways to use them to the advantage of their kennel and breed.
And then you get into what 'slightly-off coloration' is for. Is it doesn't meet the standard for conformation ring or does it mean a color that should not exist in the breed. Many breeds have colors that are naturally produced but are not acceptable in the standard. The standard is what we prefer and genetics is what actually will exist. The two don't always match. In fact if the standard is specifying colors it probably means there are colors that exist they don't prefer.
For conformation you would not show a color that is a DQ, but may pick one that is a fault if the structure is ideal. It also goes the other way a lot, someone picks a nice looking but structurally poor dog to show. I always loved gray Tervurens but the color is a fault, harder than hell to finish but not a DQ. I did see one or two that finished I think.
For breeding they are used if they have traits that will improve the breeders line of dogs. Better head, shoulders, hips, tail placement, length of tail, and on and on.
For selling, well what should be done with them? Until about 4 years ago merle was a DQ in the Great Dane show ring, and about 25% of litters black and white danes could be merle. Someone started objecting to 'culling' them many years (decades) ago, so they had to be sold. Other breeds with other colors have different solutions.
The 'I am not a breeder but ... ' crowd will say if it is not in the standard it should not be bred, new breeders tend to be the same, older breeders with a line of dogs have learned that color is just one of the factors and have found ways to use them to the advantage of their kennel and breed.
@whitestonehope When it comes to breeders who are specifically breeding for a ressessive off-standard coloration, I do not find that ethical. It limits the gene pool too much and leads to a lot of other issues down the road. Also, if a breeder is focusing too much on color, they tend to look over important health tests.
Now, if someone is breeding an off-standard color that does not limit genetic diversity and they do all the proper health tests, they could still be considered a responsible breeder (in my personal opinion). The biggest issue with this is that the breeder needs to have a lot of knowledge of proper breed structure, and you have to trust that the breeder has that knowledge as well. Without being able to gain a championship, you do risk the possibility of the dog not having a proper structure, which can lead to issues in the future. So, in my opinion, this issue isn't very black and white.
Now, the off-standard coloration that you pointed out in another post I could still consider coming from a responsible breeder. White patches like that pop up every now and then. I have even heard of breeders breeding the off-standard dog because they love everything else about the dog and want to continue the line and keep that genetic diversity. They just try to breed away from that off-standard coloration. Breeding genetics isn't as predictable as we want it to be, so sometimes specific matches will create dogs with an off-standard color pattern. It's not the worst thing.
Now, if someone is breeding an off-standard color that does not limit genetic diversity and they do all the proper health tests, they could still be considered a responsible breeder (in my personal opinion). The biggest issue with this is that the breeder needs to have a lot of knowledge of proper breed structure, and you have to trust that the breeder has that knowledge as well. Without being able to gain a championship, you do risk the possibility of the dog not having a proper structure, which can lead to issues in the future. So, in my opinion, this issue isn't very black and white.
Now, the off-standard coloration that you pointed out in another post I could still consider coming from a responsible breeder. White patches like that pop up every now and then. I have even heard of breeders breeding the off-standard dog because they love everything else about the dog and want to continue the line and keep that genetic diversity. They just try to breed away from that off-standard coloration. Breeding genetics isn't as predictable as we want it to be, so sometimes specific matches will create dogs with an off-standard color pattern. It's not the worst thing.
@whitestonehope
Overall it depends but mostly no.
In the example you linked, that dog is registered by the ACA. The ACA is not a credible registry. Their web site is a mess, and I doubt their record keeping is any better.
There are colors that are rare that exist in some breeds, that are a disqualification. Flat Coated Retrievers are a good example of that. If you purposely breed for yellow, you are tossing out everything else about the breed.
White Dobes are another.
Labs have a fairly complex way to breed the three colors.
Great Danes are also somewhat complex.
People who decide to ignore the genetics and inheritance of the colors wind up with dogs who don't match the breed standard. The people breeding them can also wind up ignoring everything about how the litter will turn out, other than color.
The French Bulldog club states:
There are breeds where almost any color is ok. Border Collies come to mind. But if you specifically breed for color in even that breed, you wind up losing temperament, working ability, health, longevity, etc.
Color should be secondary to almost anything else. And if the color you are looking at is not common in the breed, or acceptable, then don't breed for more of it.
Overall it depends but mostly no.
In the example you linked, that dog is registered by the ACA. The ACA is not a credible registry. Their web site is a mess, and I doubt their record keeping is any better.
There are colors that are rare that exist in some breeds, that are a disqualification. Flat Coated Retrievers are a good example of that. If you purposely breed for yellow, you are tossing out everything else about the breed.
White Dobes are another.
Labs have a fairly complex way to breed the three colors.
Great Danes are also somewhat complex.
People who decide to ignore the genetics and inheritance of the colors wind up with dogs who don't match the breed standard. The people breeding them can also wind up ignoring everything about how the litter will turn out, other than color.
The French Bulldog club states:
There are breeds where almost any color is ok. Border Collies come to mind. But if you specifically breed for color in even that breed, you wind up losing temperament, working ability, health, longevity, etc.
Color should be secondary to almost anything else. And if the color you are looking at is not common in the breed, or acceptable, then don't breed for more of it.
whitestonehope
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shagsnacks
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@whitestonehope Depends. If a dog is outstanding in every way except for the wrong color, than yes. Most of the time off colors are recessive so if you pair with a dog of the correct color it won’t show up in that litter. In my breed, Belgians, I know of mismarked dogs (too much white on chest and/or feet) who have been bred. I also know a black and tan dog who might be bred, he’s working line so color means less (and it’s recessive) and he’s a really nice dog.
@whitestonehope No dog is perfect and every dog has faults. Our job is to try to improve on, or at least maintain the traits we have, while bringing in more improvements from the other partner.
As for color, in my breed(GSDs), colors breeders tend to not care about structure, temperament, or working ability.
As for color, in my breed(GSDs), colors breeders tend to not care about structure, temperament, or working ability.
@whitestonehope I did it. My breed is predominantly white. I had a pup born black. Some breeders told me to CULL HER. Another offered me $10k for her. I did DNA gene testing to prove puppy was pure bred. I knew this anyway as had owned the line for six generations. I had some different geneticists help me understand what happened. My white dogs carried a recessive gene for black and another gene if mom and dad both carry it then it switches the color. Even though they are white the offspring can be black. I kept the black puppy. Breed her. Most of her puppies were white (standard) and a few black. It’s just COLOR and doesn’t impact the integrity of the animal. A lot of breeds have color variances. It’s not a big deal. If the puppy you want comes from health tested parents and you like the unique color go for it. Just be careful too and make sure the parents have dna health testing to prove they are pure bred if pure bred is what you want.
iamachristian7
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@whitestonehope Some breeders breed for work/sport rather than for shows. There's plenty off "off-standard" working dogs that are absolutely amazing at what they do and their lines should be carried on. When you have a working dog the color of their coat hardly matters.
@whitestonehope There is a famous collie, Wyndlair Avalanche, who is double merle and has sired many winning offspring. He was kept to breed because he has excellent structure. Whether he should have been bred in the first place is a different story. He also probably can't be reliably tested for collie eye anomaly because DM comes with eye defects. But the people using him would largely be considered ethical by many people's standards if you ignore the fact that they used such a dog. There is also a discussion to be had anout whether double merle could be an accetable risk if two merle dogs otherwise complement each other perfectly. So ultimately I think it's up to personal opinion in a case like this. As for harmless colors, yes. They do, and if they discard an otherwise perfect dog based on color... I would question whether that's truly ethical. Because the gene pools are small enough.
erniedavid
New member
@whitestonehope No. They would not.
christian4059
New member
@whitestonehope A good dog can't be a bad color.
comfortinghrtsministry
New member
@whitestonehope No.
taylordactyl
New member
@whitestonehope Definitely, happens every day.
A breed standard is whatever current parent club members want it to be. It can and does change.
In my breed, the breed parent club originally said there is no reason to believe dilute is not in purebred dogs, and dilutes did meet the original breed standard, but then some extremist members got the club to reverse its position, based purely on politics and not on any science, and they now claim dilute never existed in the breed. Those of us who like dilutes treat the parent club like racist old great-grandparents and generally do more health testing, on average, than is done on average by breeders who avoid dilutes, who are known for such dubious practices as breeding siblings, and choosing dogs with inferior hips if they happen to have more handsome heads. It seems likely that when narrow-minded elders age out, the breed standard will probably get changed back, but until then we get called backyard breeders by online bullies.
There are other examples of ignoring a breed standard for coloration. There is a service dog organization which breeds multi-colored dogs in this solid-colored breed, based on parents' performance as service dogs. It's would be rather unreasonable to call them backyard breeders for that.
A breed standard is whatever current parent club members want it to be. It can and does change.
In my breed, the breed parent club originally said there is no reason to believe dilute is not in purebred dogs, and dilutes did meet the original breed standard, but then some extremist members got the club to reverse its position, based purely on politics and not on any science, and they now claim dilute never existed in the breed. Those of us who like dilutes treat the parent club like racist old great-grandparents and generally do more health testing, on average, than is done on average by breeders who avoid dilutes, who are known for such dubious practices as breeding siblings, and choosing dogs with inferior hips if they happen to have more handsome heads. It seems likely that when narrow-minded elders age out, the breed standard will probably get changed back, but until then we get called backyard breeders by online bullies.
There are other examples of ignoring a breed standard for coloration. There is a service dog organization which breeds multi-colored dogs in this solid-colored breed, based on parents' performance as service dogs. It's would be rather unreasonable to call them backyard breeders for that.