No hope for 8 month old Golden?💔

[oscarwip]

Mentioned in a previous post, my 8 month old golden retriever developed resource guarding “high value” objects around 5 months. The bites are semi severe as they now break skin . He is semi anxious and once he gets into the guarding phase, he becomes fearful and gives you all the cues to back off. We took him to puppy school where he was kicked out half way through because a new hire grabbed a stick out of his mouth on a walk and he bit her. He also got kicked out of boarding for being nippy when employees tried to crate him at night. 99% of the time he is the smartest, sweetest, cuddly dog you can imagine. Due to these rage bites where he’s broken skin, the vet and a behaviorist we just hired both recommended early neuter and Prozac (1 week ago). Yesterday I was trading object for treats all day with him, he was letting me do anything.. I ended up taking a shoe away from him and he went full demon and broke skin on 3 different sites on my hands. I sent the damage to my behaviorist (who we just started with) & breeder, and both highly recommended he immediately be euthanized. This is without the behaviorist even starting to work with him (just an initial phone call), the neuter even having its desired effect of dumping testosterone (takes 2-3 weeks), and the breeder offering condolences+ free trade for a new puppy (she says she will immediately euthanize . I can’t process all of this because my little Kona is perfect 99% of the time and doesn’t deserve to die over some anxiety driven guarding.

This is my first dog as an adult after growing up with dogs all my life. Any tips or advice before we make a decision would be greatly appreciated

 

[dalee]

@oscarwip I just started my dog on Prozac . She is no longer snappy or resource guarding. Started in late January. Just anecdotal but I was considering BE, this was my last hope. Whatever you choose, I'm sorry you are dealing with this

 

[dalee]

She comes from a backyard breeder, I got her from the SPCA. Was considering euthanasia until prozac

 

[oscarwip]

@dalee That’s great news for you guys! Was she a severe resource guarder? Hopefully this works at least a little bit with us as well, only 1 week in though.

 

[incrediblyabsurd]

@oscarwip Have you tried a balanced trainer other than positive only training?

 

[oscarwip]

@dalee That’s great news for you guys! Was she a severe resource guarder? Hopefully this works at least a little bit with us as well, only 1 week in though.

 

[dalee]

@oscarwip Yeah she was getting things out of the garbage and snapping repeatedly at me, I was scared of her. And no warning when she did

 

[qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbn]

@oscarwip My 6th dog was a biter at 8 months (he bit the vet before we muzzle trained him). He is not a resource guarder but a fear-biter.

We muzzle trained, and switched to a Fear Free vet. In other words we took his fearful experience away.

Your dog fears loosing things. So don’t take things from him any more. If he has something you want give him something better. Let him see you don’t take things.

But do muzzle train him right now. (All positive) the harder the dog (biting) the more you have to only be positive, not a push-over, just positive reward based shaping.

I had a wolf-hybrid rescue who could inflict seriously damaging bites. I treated her just like she was a tiger. All positive.

If you have kids you have to be extra careful, and I did have kids (we didn’t know she was wolf hybrid, she was a “husky-GSD rescue”)

Anyhow, start there. I don’t like Prozac for biters, I like shaping desired behavior. Prozac is not a good choice for a dog who doesn’t have inhibitions, (biting) it takes away the little they have and they can bite more and worse.

But I haven’t met the dog.

Please don’t force him in his crate or take anything away from him ever again. Treat him like a tiger. All positive all the time.

 

[davenoonan]

@qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbn Agree 100%! Anyone reading this with a puppy DO NOT TAKE THINGS from your dog/puppy without distracting first or trade.

Even if your puppy never showed any signs of resource guarding, you never want to trigger this fear.

 

[goodbadugly]

@davenoonan Yeah l read that post and thought why are they taking things away from the pup ? I've never done that with any of my dogs.

 

[hugues]

@goodbadugly I think that the purpose of this is to be able to safely take something from a dog's mouth, which can be
potentially dangerous.

For OP's dog, the muzzle training would be a good option. At least, it guarantees that the dog will not take something from the ground.
I have a pug and put muzzle on him is ridiculous. That's why I must be sure that I can water I want from his mouth safely.

 

[oscarwip]

@qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbn This is great advice, it is so, so appreciated! What I don’t like is the extreme variance of opinions on this thread

 

[foodiehubster]

@oscarwip Hi OP. As a first dog owner I too struggled with which opinions to align with, so I find this comment highly relatable.

I've tried all positive, LIMA and trainers that advocate punishment.

My conclusion was this - trainers encouraging first time dog owners to use punishment is akin to an ice skulptor handing you a chainsaw and saying "now you try!". I've seen such trainers produce dogs that, at first glance, appear to be very well trained and socialised. I've also seen such trainers with wildly insecure, out of control dogs that don't know which way is up. The trainer will then say that the dog is the problem (because their methods have worked on other dogs just fine!).

Regardless, methods that rely on punishment are high risk. I'm not saying they don't work, but I've seen them land inexperienced handlers in hot water really quick. It takes a lot longer to undo the damage than it takes to cause it

On the positive and LIMA side, I've always observed steady, slow progress. Sometimes so slow it seems like no progress is being made at all.

I still find this preferable to risking damaging my dog.

My dog was a resource guarder as a pup - he now prefers to be nearer to me when he eats. I used the methods described above - I don't steal off him and I always offer a trade. I don't punish him for warning me he's unhappy - that just invites a bite without warning.

When in doubt I ask "how would I react if someone reached for my burger as I was eating it?"

Hope this helps, and good luck

 

[oscarwip]

@foodiehubster Your messages are screenshotted and saved for the next few months of training. Your advice is so, so appreciated. Thank you!

 

[foodiehubster]

@oscarwip Also (and please forgive me I know you're drowning in opinions), I've found a strong drop, recall and a high value reward negates me ever having to take anything from my dog: he drops, comes over and gets a reward and then I go pick the item up.

I built this by calling him away and, giving him a better reward and then allowing him to return to the item I'd recalled him from. Or feigning an inspection of the high value item before returning it to him

It's not foolproof, and not all things work with all dogs - your dog might start racing you to retrieve the item, so you might have to drop a handful of hotdog or something while you go retrieve.. don't trust people who tell you they have all the answers, the dunning-krueger effect is real

I truly wish you the best of luck with this, I can imagine how heartbreaking this must be

 

[michael_natale]

@qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbn

 

[sicarii]

@qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbn I wish this was more common knowledge! With all the "dominance"-trainers out there, showing dogs who's the "leader", I have the feeling we are going backwards again.

I have never specifically trained taking his food/snacks/toys etc. away with my dog. He knows "leave it" and "let go". I only take things from him (without trading) when I absolutely have to, and when I have to, it's so rare, he doesn't anticipate it and doesn't react.

Resource guarding can be a trust issue and is often "taught" unknowingly.

 

[tommygunnz]

@childman I want to second in the concern about trigger stacking, there are certain times of day that I know my reactive dog is not at his best, and we don’t take walks or train heavily in that time... Because it is not productive. Learning that new behavior, and practicing being willing to trade takes a lot of mental and emotional energy, your dog cannot practice that skill all day, they need breaks they need the chance to decompress, and just be a dog.

 

[oscarwip]

@childman This is good advice.. I think I will at least wait until the Prozac kicks in and the testosterone is fully dumped post-neuter. Thank you!

 

[mrnarthex]

@oscarwip While I understand the training people suggest for resource guarding, my golden also resource guards and I do absolutely zero for it. He gets a high value treat every night and is left alone until he finishes. If it happens to roll under a table or tv stand, I use a mop handle to fish it out, or send him outside to safely get the item. It’s been three years since I adopted him and he will even eat the treat next to me (but I’m not stupid enough to try to interrupt or take it away). Is your dog not allowing you to exist in the same space (room) with the high value item? I don’t quite understand how you’re being bitten so much, unless it’s all this training.

Also, my dog cannot go into public spaces (save for large area parks and daily walks). Your dog’s reactions to new and stressful places are a recipe for disaster if he’s anxious and guards. Part of the reactive territory is learning triggers and what your dog can’t do. Don’t make his world just your home, but don’t take him to high stress locations either. It’s all a balance and it unfortunately just comes with time.