Need honest answers on getting this ball (maybe) rolling…

[james1131]

I have had a love for golden retrievers ever since I got my first golden pup as a kid. I mean, I absolutely ADORE them. Their temperament, their sweet faces, their gorgeous coat, their snuggles, all of it. In my book, they’re best dogs - hands down. And NOW, I’m finally at a point in my life where (I think) I may feasibly be able to turn this passion/obsession into a hobby.

After talking with my husband, we are seriously considering dipping our toes into showing/breeding. I have a biology degree and a strong interest in (and understanding of) genetics. I work in a hospital setting part-time, and had considered certifying my current golden to be a therapy dog, but ultimately didn’t have the time while I was in grad school. Then I had two kids. Then life happened. And now she is about to turn 10. But things are finally slowing down a bit. (To be clear, never considered breeding our current pup in her younger years; she is spayed).

Anyway, we’ve been running our finances trying to figure out when the right time to plunge in would be. I’ve purchased several books to start better educating myself, and really don’t expect to even start looking for another dog (with the intention to show/breed) for at least another year or so.

So now my questions for you fine folks:

1) What is the honest annual cost of breeding? I heard the first year or two is pricier. After that, I’ve heard you may break even or possibly profit a bit. Give it to me straight - will I be bleeding money? If so, how much?

2) Does it make sense to have only one dog that you focus on showing/breeding to begin? Or do most have several? Should I invest my all in one pup initially?

3) I have an almost 3 yr old and a 5 yr old. I work 24 hrs a week. Husband works FT. Is this manageable?

4) Would it be more cost-efficient initially to start with a male dog and if he ends up showing well dip into breeding with studding? Especially with my current time commitments? Eventually, I would LOVE to care for a bitch and a litter, but I want to do so responsibly and be reasonable here.

5) I think showing would be SO MUCH fun, but is it possible to enjoy breeding (or even have anyone want to breed with your pup) if your dog isn’t currently holding a title? Again - I want to be reasonable with how much time I can allot to this. Can I nudge into this hobby in any way with a dog who has only been through AKC classes and therapy certified? Or should the pup have proven herself/himself in competition first? What’s protocol here?

Geez - I have so many other questions, but let’s start here! Thanks so much to anyone who takes time to educate me. I feel so ignorant still, but I guess we all start somewhere!

 

[mark0086]

@james1131 Ok slow down…..first thing is get a bitch from a reputable breeder that will mentor you. They will teach you how to show. Show your bitch or let them show her as co-owner. Then when she turns two you have all the health testing done. If she passes then your mentor chooses a stud for her after doing tons of homework on studs.

Don’t get a dog thinking he’s going to be stud material. Also keep in mind that the golden show ring is hugely competitive. Most dogs have professional handlers on them if they want to win. That’s not cheap! Just jumping into the golden show ring is not easy by any means.

This breed has one of the most competitive rings out there. Just getting points can be a challenge because the numbers have to be so much higher than other breeds. Professional handlers can and will finish your dog. Or a very savvy breeder who knows the ropes and has a spotless reputation in the ring as a constant winner. Golden showing is not for the faint of heart. It’s a tough crowd that is ruled by professional handlers period.

Breeding takes years of experience and working with your mentor and hopefully a great reproductive veterinarian. I’ve been breeding and showing sporting group setters for over 30 years, it’s not cheap and it’s not easy. Once in a while I actually make a small profit on a litter. This is not a money making project. It’s doing it for the love of the breed and wanting to produce the best and healthiest dogs possible. Money is not an issue so put that on a back burner please. You need to have some money to do this right. Proper pre natal care is pricey, showing is pricey, travel is pricey, professional handlers are very expensive! You need to be realistic if you’re serious about getting really involved in showing and breeding one of the most popular breeds in the world.

 

[james1131]

@mark0086 Thank you!! This is great info!!

Yes, I’m aware that goldens are super popular. (In my biased opinion, rightly so lol).

But I do feel a bit discouraged now. If I’m not a professional handler with a dog who has earned titles, is that to imply that no one is going to want to breed with my pup? (I’m sorry if this sounds ignorant, but as I’m still early in the research phase, I am admittedly just that!)

 

[mark0086]

@james1131 Pro handlers don’t own the dog, they are hired by folks like us to show our dogs. The judges know who the pros are and many judges only look at who’s holding the leash not what is on the leash. That’s why folks hire professional handlers to get their dogs finished in the ring. No it’s not right and no it’s not fair but that’s the problem with dog shows.

So we breeders keep a detailed list of bad judges and good judges so we only show under the good ones who actually judge the dogs on their quality and performance and not who is holding the leash. There’s a whole lot of nuance in dog shows.

Yes your dog/bitch needs to be a champion in the show ring if you want to breed her to a good healthy stud. I have both a stud and bitches, if your bitch isn’t a finished champion with a clean health check I will not allow my boy to breed with her. This is normal operating procedure for show dogs when it comes to breeding. We check pedigrees, we pour over health histories of not just the breeding dog but their parents and grandparents too.

Our entire focus is to breed up, meaning that next litter needs to be better than the parents, grandparents etc. we are always trying to make the breed better with our offspring from any litter.

You’re not ignorant you’re learning! Questions is how you learn this stuff. Yes your dog can win titles and finish without a pro handler, but it can take longer and bleed into her fertile years. Especially with goldens. Hard hard ring to win in and champion in without a pro handler. Just being honest with you here. It truly is one of the hardest breeds to get championships in.

First things first, find a top notch breeder who is logistically able to work with you on showing and grooming your bitch. The rest will fall into place as you learn more. Your first show bitch may not be your first breeding bitch so remember you may have to wait for a few years until you have a great bitch to breed. It takes years to establish yourself as a successful breeder. A great mentor is key to your success in this endeavor.

 

[james1131]

@mark0086 Thank you again! This is so helpful!!

 

[mark0086]

@james1131 You’re most welcome! Please feel free to contact me anytime for info. You seem to have the heart to do this. I don’t want to discourage you but I want you to realize how expensive this can be and how much of a commitment it is. It’s truly rewarding to create a healthy wonderful litter of gorgeous puppies that you will follow and be involved in throughout their lives. That’s the biggest reward for breeding! I hope you have a wonderful journey ahead of you! But….believe me breeding dogs is not for the faint of heart. It can be brutal and unpredictable at times. Please prepare yourself for some amazing success and some terrible heartbreak. We all deal with it and have to move forward.

Just focus on the wins and the losses that teach us.

 

[donnags1964]

@james1131 As others have mentioned, Goldens are a VERY competitive breed, especially for a owner/handler. Co-owning with a breeder who will provide mentorship is KEY.

You are researching and asking all the right questions-kudos. I encourage you to visit a local confirmation show to get a feel for the environment & pick up a show catalog. This will list each golden and provide a great list of breeders to contact. If you are lucky, you might even run into a few at the show (granted, majority are shown with a pro handler).

 

[james1131]

@donnags1964 Thank you so much!

 

[smilerman312]

@james1131 You got a good snapshot of showing and breeding Join a local specialty club so you meet up with other golden enthusiasts and hopefully meet someone that can mentor youhttps://grca.org/about-grca/grca-clubs-map/ Go to dog shows in your area to watch and meet with the "fancy" as show people are calledhttps://m.infodog.com/show/state_shows.htm

I breed and show poodles, also a handler breed. I love it but it is a time consuming and expensive hobby. I enjoy my dogs and love puppies and making families happy with well bred and socialized puppies. This choice has lead to an alternative lifestyle as my life revolves around my dogs. So meet up with golden people and see if it something you want to get involved with. There is Junior Handling if you want to make it a family affair for your kids as they get older.

 

[james1131]

@smilerman312 Just looked and my local specialty club happens to be 6 mins away from my house! So pumped!

 

[james1131]

@smilerman312 Oh my goodness! I had no idea about junior handling! My daughter especially would love that when she is old enough. She loves “golden babies,” as she calls them. Thanks for the info!

 

[busryde]

@james1131 I am a very small time breeder (European line English Springer Spaniels). I had my first litter recently (and it will like be years until I do it again). You have been given wonderful advice regarding conformation titles, finding a mentor, ect.

In terms of cost I would say I conservatively spent about 10k - health testing, stud fees and shipping semen (2800 for the semen alone, and shipping and storage on top of that), reproductive care (breeding soundness exam, progesterone testing, insemination, ultrasound, radiographs), purchasing supplies.

I am not including the purchase price of the bitch or money spent training and putting titles on her because I consider that money spent anyway.

Could I have done things cheaper? Maybe. But then I would have been cutting corners and if I make the choice for my girl to put her body at risk, then I don't think it is fair to cut corners.

I absolutely lost money on the litter. If I bred her again, the health testing and supplies part would be already taken care of, so I MIGHT make a few thousand, maybe.

Puppies need to be monitored pretty much 24/7 the first few weeks in my opinion. That may be tough with kids and jobs (I am self employed so took weeks off work and when I went back to work after 3 weeks had people to puppy sit).

 

[james1131]

@busryde Thanks for sharing, especially the numbers! Yes, I expected the first year to be expensive, but really wanted some more concrete numbers to help with planning.

In terms of monitoring pups, my parents live nearby and have about 5 acres. They too have a love for goldens. They are retired, and my dad especially is very interested in helping out with the hobby. If we ended up with a litter, he has expressed a strong desire to help with care. (I also have excellent PTO). In terms of time commitment, I am more concerned about everything leading up having a litter - prenatal care, showing, etc.

 

[davecb]

@james1131 So lots of questions and I have some answers.

(I don't know if you live in the US, but I do, so I'll speak from that perspective. )

The first is it's really hard to buy a puppy with the intention of "I will breed this dog". And good Golden breeders will hard core side eye you if you go to them saying that.

If you say you want to show the dog or work the dog, that's a different story. They will want to co-own with you. That will be non-negotiable with any Golden breeder that is worth her salt. They won't hand over a bitch, on full registration, for you to go off and do whatever if you are new to the world of showing and Goldens. There are too many people who have found their bitches were bred to Poodles or bred to the guy's dog down the street, or whatever.

If you are not ok with co-ownership, you'll be able to find some cream dog breeder who will sell you a bitch, at a very big price. It's not really possible to finish one of the cream dogs in the United States, and it's not because of the color. If you have any aspiration of showing a dog, you need to stick to the people who are breeding dogs that look like the other dogs in the AKC ring.

1) What is the honest annual cost of breeding? I heard the first year or two is pricier.

It depends on what you are doing. Are you showing this dog? Are you hiring a handler? Entries for a weekend of shows and a handler is expensive.

On top of that, doing all of the needed health testing on a Golden is not cheap. I have my bitch booked to have her hips and elbows x-rayed in a few weeks. The estimate I got from the vet is just over $1,000. She's already been to a board certified cardiologist, and to a board certified ophthalmologist, and has had a bunch of DNA based tests done. All told I've probably spent about $1,500 or so on her health testing so far. And she's spayed.

The cost of breeding a Golden, the actual cost, would include the stud fee, the cost of having a reproductive vet for testing and support if something goes wrong, the cost of Brucellosis testing, the cost of a whelping box, the cost of first shots for the puppies.

Some breeders take the entire litter in to a cardiologist and a ophthalmologist at six weeks as well.

2) Does it make sense to have only one dog that you focus on showing/breeding to begin?

So you need to ask yourself, what are you trying to do? If you just want to breed dogs, buy some dogs and breed them. There are plenty of breeders out there who do exactly that, but that's not the good way to do things.

If you want to show your future dog, understand that until she is at least 2, she's a mystery as far as breeding goes. You could spend the money to finish her, and then find out that she has a cardiac issue. Or her hips aren't ok.

I don't see ANY reason to stack your house with dogs though.

4) Would it be more cost-efficient initially to start with a male dog and if he ends up showing well dip into breeding with studding?

Unless he is an amazing dog, no one will use him. I use the gauge of, "if someone bred their bitch to my dog, would I want a puppy from that". If the answer is no, then no I don't want them to use my dog.

There are two reasons to have someone use your dog: the first is that the breeding has something to contribute to the breed. That your dog is an amazing example and should be used.

The second is money.

I have a friend who has a CH MACH PACH CDX SH dog. Great pedigree, amazing athlete, good temperament. He's been used a few times, but that's it. One of the all time top Golden Retriever agility dogs was used I think four times. That's it.

There is no good market for boy dogs, unless they are amazing, and even then, it's not that great.

is it possible to enjoy breeding (or even have anyone want to breed with your pup) if your dog isn’t currently holding a title

Well you can sell to pet homes. But again, if you want a very nice bitch, from a great pedigree, the breeder is going to want more than "she looks so cute with my kids" or, "she loves the pool!!" before saying, yeah go breed her.

a dog who has only been through AKC classes and therapy certified?

I'm not sure what you mean by AKC classes? Do you mean having a CGC?

I'd figure out first why you want to breed dogs. For many people it comes down to, "I think I can make some money". that really shouldn't be part of the equation as one emergency C section and spay, should tell you that this is not a good place to invest your money.

If you get into showing and love it, that's a different story.

But if you don't want to do all of that, then think about why you want to do this.

And as a side note those cream dogs I mentioned? They are super expensive and not what you want if you want to produce good Golden Retrievers.

 

[james1131]

@davecb Thanks for the very helpful info! I appreciate it coming from someone experienced with goldens.

When it comes to motivation, I’m truly not looking to do this to make money. As I mentioned, I only work part-time. If I was desperate for more money, I would just work 5 days a week. Anyway, I know enough to know that properly and responsibly breeding is not something you can as a side-hustle. (In my more ignorant days, I actually purchased a golden from a puppy mill in Amish country, and she almost died from Parvovirus).

Essentially, I want to turn my love for goldens into a rewarding hobby. What that will look like, I’m still trying to figure out. I definitely want to train my new dog to come to the hospital with me, and breeding folds nicely into my background in biology and healthcare in a beautiful way. But if I can’t breed a dog that isn’t titled, then I suppose I would have to show? And as I said before, I do think showing could be very enjoyable, but is obviously a huge time commitment. And I do need to rational about finances with a husband and kiddos.

So, I guess that’s where I am right now lol.

(And also, I’m not a fan of English cream or red goldens. I’m all about that true gold!)

 

[davecb]

@james1131

I definitely want to train my new dog to come to the hospital with me, and breeding folds nicely into my background in biology and healthcare in a beautiful way.

One side note on that: most places (the ones with good lawyers) will want you to be certified thru a therapy dog organization, so you and the dog are insured.

The not so good places don't check paperwork, and don't realize the liability till something happens.

So when you get to that point, you'll want to find a tester for some organization or other. And you'll want to be sure that they are ok with the place you plan on going to.

When I had my last therapy dog, if there was a place that wanted us to visit, I had to let the group that insured us know, so they could add it to their "OK" list. It was straightforward but just keep that in mind.

But if I can’t breed a dog that isn’t titled, then I suppose I would have to show?

I have field dogs and their proof of being good dogs is that they work. Someone can look up my dogs, see their work record, titles, and health clearances, even though they have never set foot in a conformation ring.

 

[james1131]

@davecb Yes, I plan to get my pup certified through Therapy Dogs International. That’s who I originally planned to get my current golden certified through, but it didn’t pan out with my grad school load.

And good to know about titling vs field work!

 

[davecb]

@james1131

Yes, I plan to get my pup certified through Therapy Dogs International.

Perfect!! They have a few more hoops than do some other groups but I always felt well protected, as far as any litigious idiots.

 

[sustainableblueberry]

@james1131 I would suggest doing the co-owning route with a good breeder. Find your closest all-breed kennel club and network with the handlers and breeders there. Start attending meetings even before you get your prospective dog. Talk with the breeders for goldens and find someone who you connect with, don’t just choose one that you wouldn’t get along with. You will need to build a positive working relationship between you and the breeder. Don’t pass on UKC events either. They can be good practice building up your confidence for AKC shows (some of the rules are different though). Juniors in UKC start younger than AKC Juniors, so if your little ones want to get in on some fun handling stuff, they might could pickup some skills there too. But that really is something that you’d need to talk with the breeder about too since your first dog would be on a co-own deal. I would suggest one Female to start with.

I breed toy breeds (have smaller litters) and I am limited to the number of litters I am legally allowed to breed to 2 litters in any consecutive 12 month period, the adjacent town is only allowed 1 litter a year. I have never even made enough to cover expenses of showing, let alone the expenses of breeding, but it’s a love for the breed. The laws vary based on where you are located, so be sure to check your state, county and City ordinances for any restrictions or requirements if you are even allowed to breed.

 

[james1131]

@sustainableblueberry Thanks for the tips! Sounds like the co-owning route is the way to go. Why do you recommend a female to start?