Need assistance walking past dogs

[snowballowen]

I have an 11 month old golden x poodle that is the friendliest dog in the world. It took me about a month when he was 3 months old to train him to be neutral around humans when walking on leash - his natural inclination was to run up and say hello to everyone, and we still have some issues off leash where he'll start to run to someone at a distance, but I can 99% of the time use recall to prevent this (still a work in progress). But as I said, using positive reinforcement only I was able to condition him to walk past people without interacting. He has a command "go say hi" when he has permission to interact.
Anyway, he's even more dog obsessed than human obsessed and has struggled walking past dogs on/off leash without saying hello since day 1. Once he has said his initial hello he'll calm right down, but seeing a dog even 50-100 feet away and he's immediately on alert. It's 2000% excitement, not anxiety or anything else. He just desperately wants to play. Anyway I've been working on getting him to walk past dogs 3x per week since he was 3 months old and we've hit a wall and have 0 improvement in 4-5 months. I've done the whole "get his attention at his threshold and train there" for months. I bribe him past dogs by holding his highest value treats in front of his nose or literally in his mouth and we STILL struggle. We do not do on leash hellos at all, but he does play with dogs off leash 2-3x/week. My positive reinforcement trainer suggests I just continue to bribe him past dogs but honestly I've been doing that for months with literally no success.
FWIW we use a flat collar and 6 ft leash as he's very good on leash outside of this issue. We have just started e-collar work (not with my personal trainer; I'm following Tyler Muti's program).
Anyway I'm hoping you might have some suggestions for this. Eventually I hope to use the e-collar to reinforce the correct behavior but we are far too early in the conditioning process to be using the collar for that. So - what suggestions do you have for me here? It's an exhausting thing to manage.

 

[joshuawithmartin]

@snowballowen Have you looked into Leslie McDevitt’s Control Unleashed book and Pattern Games yet? They can be great for friendly frustrated dogs with hyper arousal issues. There are CU speciality trainers that can help with this too.

When you say “bribe him past dogs” what do you mean exactly? It sounds more like management than training, which is great for helping you get through the day to day but not really the same as training.

 

[snowballowen]

@joshuawithmartin I have not! I'll look into it for sure.
And yes, it's more management vs training at this point - it originally was supposed to be training but he never got any better with it. The food was supposed to help keep his attention on me so started with very quick succession rewards while.passing dogs, but still if I slow down the pace of reward he lunges towards the other dog to play. I can barely get his focus on me. Not sure how to spin this into training at this point in time!

 

[jtrevor99]

@joshuawithmartin Came here to recommend CU! Helped immensely with my dogs reactivity.

 

[sonyeondan_ello]

@snowballowen Following because we have a similar issue. Can pass dogs who are calm and neutral just fine, but if they start acting excited or interested it's game over. I will say though, we've had lots of luck pulling off to the side of the trail or sidewalk and reinforcing calm observation and attention to me. Just gotta translate that to being in motion somehow.

 

[monica26]

@sonyeondan_ello Keep moving with purpose . Like no bodies got time for that . use a cue word if need be. I say OT and keep moving. Don't hesitate .

 

[snowballowen]

@sonyeondan_ello We can't even pass dogs that are calm and neutral. I mean I can if I have chicken shoved in his face but that's about it. So you're already doing better than us! I've tried the method you mention but haven't been consistent with ut- maybe that's a good next step.

 

[sonyeondan_ello]

@snowballowen We also use lots of chicken The fact that he's willing to eat treats in the moment is probably a good sign! Definitely curious to see what feedback you get here. There's a house down the road from us that has a chain link fence and their dog is always out and PUMPED to see potential friends walk by. It's my favorite direction to go for a walk and it's a consistent shitshow I feel ya on the exhausting to manage part.

 

[snowballowen]

@sonyeondan_ello True! And that would definitely be us if he was allowed in the front yard I just feel so stuck because we've made no progress at all despite working on it for so long. I'm hoping it's partially an age thing he'll work out of as he starts hitting maturing at 1.5/2 years....how old is your pup?

 

[sonyeondan_ello]

@snowballowen She's 13mo and I've had the same thought about maturity (she's also a goldendoodle, but mostly poodle and of the 30lb size variety). Not an excuse to stop working on it with her, but I know people say things get easier after adolescence. She still very much has puppy energy in her interactions with other dogs. Although she just went into heat for the first time so I'm curious to see how that might change things going forward.

 

[snowballowen]

@sonyeondan_ello Yeah I have the 50 lb variety. Definitely still puppy energy for sure. He just never really showed any typical adolescent behaviors - he's been incredibly easy all in all - so I'm not convinced this will change for us. We shall see!

 

[sonyeondan_ello]

@snowballowen Yeah you might be surprised! I've heard dog trainers say their social interactions start to change around 18mo. Will be interesting for sure

 

[monica26]

@snowballowen Does you dog get so excited it chokes on treats . ? when its reactive? Also have you thought about the fact . You're paying for excitement . Have you considered paying only. when Your dog is calm and relaxed? it makes the value of food higher.

 

[snowballowen]

@monica26 No, he doesn't choke on treats ever. And yeah I've considered that - it's supposed to be rewarding for his attention but it's desintegrated into something that doesn't look like that anymore. Issue is he is NEVER calm passing dogs. So, question is how to get him to be calm while passing a dog

 

[monica26]

@snowballowen stop and make him sit and watch them walk by . correct if its not what you want. I say OT and wiggle the leash .its enough to settle things down.but I've worked on being the high value reward for 2.5 years. no treats after everyone understood commands . at home I always pay if your calm and in your spot .

 

[themanwhosinned]

@snowballowen My strategy is to train a strong "look at me" and heel command and have them in a close heel watching you on the opposite side of the dog. That way they have a job to do and aren't looking at the dog as much. But honestly, I still avoid passing dogs as much as I can, I'll usually cross the street if I see someone coming.

 

[monica26]

@themanwhosinned Why do you cross the street ? Is it you , your dog . Or the other dog that concerns you?

 

[themanwhosinned]

@monica26 My dog, because she's reactive and may bark at them and I don't want to be rude, and also the other dog, because I have no idea if their person is going to let them get close to mine when I'm trying to avoid on leash greetings.

 

[skylos]

@snowballowen I have a doodle and I have had this same issue. I’ve been working with a trainer and in todays session we actually walked around the park for an hour on a 30 foot leash and it was the most enjoyable walk I’ve had. There is light at the end of the tunnel. I overall suggest finding a reputable trainer (not one who only does positive reinforcement- I went through 3 before I found this guy)

Here’s our protocol now that works for me (I didn’t read all the replies so sorry if someone else said this)

When I see the oncoming dog, about when he’ll fixate on it (20 feet?) I call him back to me and move backwards to break his focus on them and refocus on me and reward. If I have time/space I might do it twice. *this has really helped his recall too

Once the dog is about 10 feet out I put two hands on the leash and bank off away from them, tell my dog “let’s go” if he lunges at the other dog he gets a correction. If he passes without popping off he gets a reward.

If another dog is friendly and I can tell the owner wants them to say hi, I’ll allow it. I don’t correct if he’s looking towards or even sometimes at the end of the leash as long as he doesn’t lunge/ bark he gets a reward. If the other dog is popping off at him he doesn’t get corrected if he reciprocated.

Tools/gear: My dog has a high tolerance for corrections and just ignored them, and I’m not as strong as I used to be. We started with a gentle leader but he pulled through it. Then we switched to a Starmark collar which worked but I wasn’t consistent enough, and at the end not strong enough. Then we switched to an e-collar with the Starmark) and it’s changed everything. I can walk my dog now!

Good luck to you. It will get better, it’s a poodle/doodle thing (my last dog was a poodle and did it too). I really can’t stress enough to find a good trainer who can give you tools that worn.

 

[skylos]

Oh and if the other dog is running towards us we bank off and I let him see the other dog but reward him for not reacting. If he starts to fixate we move further away.