My male dog won’t breed with my female

[thecurious]

@justdana What tests? I hope it isn't just DNA. They need their hips, patellas, congentital deafness, and ideally elbows

https://ofa.org/chic-programs/browse-by-breed/?breed=BTR

Personally, I strongly recommend the BOAS test to make sure you are breeding dogs that can actually breathe

https://ofa.org/diseases/rfgs/

Do they have titles in something? At least major pointed in conformation? Or some trick titles/companion dog titles? If not, you shouldn't be breeding them.

 

[chrishudges]

@justdana The functional dog collective is a bunch of backyard breeders you need to contact your breeds parent Club.

 

[lumiere]

@chrishudges You can have a different opinion, and that's absolutely fine, but I love the FDC. They have a ton of amazing information and speak to so many different people to learn more and teach others. They do get a lot of hate because they support mix breeding, but they support responsible mixed breeding and open mindedness.

 

[klpotte3]

@lumiere Their goal is good. Mixed breeding can be done Responsibly. But none of their breeders do complete health testing. Lots of them do only partial health testing and some breed dogs with only preliminary results.

 

[lumiere]

@klpotte3 So, idk what you mean by "their breeders." All I can find is their Companion Dog Registration (CDR), and that requires a lot to become a part of. Here is a link if you would like to see.

I'm not trying to argue at all, but I am genuinely curious where you got that information from. That NONE of their breeders do complete health testing. They have a breeder directory, but I can't personally look at it without setting up an account, and I can not reach that page to set up an account. I'm just confused on where you see that information. I don't see the FDC having any list of breeders that I can access.

 

[klpotte3]

@lumiere So. The FDC says they support the companion dog registration and copilot breeding cooperative. I could not find a list of breeders for the copilot breeding cooperative.

There's a list of breeders on the companion dog registration. These are the breeders I meant when I said "their breeders" as this is the organization they openly support.

https://www.companiondogproject.com/team-4-1

Here it is!

I spend a whole weekend once going through them a few months ago and I couldn't find a breeder that does complete health testing on all dogs used for breeding. Some common issues we're breeding dogs who weren't health tested at all, using preliminary results, or using results that weren't valid at time of testing (ie. Eye results need to be repeated every year, but I've seen a lot of dogs only get the test be done once and used for breeding a few years later without it being redone). Dogs missing health tests was also common. There were also a few that had multiple litters on the ground at once, which is not ideal unless liters are super small (only a few pups).

I would love to be able to find a good doodle breeder because there are so many people who want doodles and being able to steer them to a good breeder would be great. If you know of any, I would love to take a super close look and see if they tick all the boxes.

 

[lumiere]

@klpotte3 Ah, okay. Thanks for that information. Now, I will say that I do still love the FDC for all the information it has for breeders, and I do think it is a good resource to steer inexperienced people in the right direction. Now, that doesn't mean I agree with what some of these breeders lack, but I do still very much love the FDC.

Also, thanks for having an actual conversation with me instead of an argument. I genuinely appreciate that.

I am also curious about your opinion on GANA? I know that to become a member you don't have to have ALL the health tests, but it is meant as a way to draw people in and help them learn. I know if they aren't able to get all the recommended health tests within a year (something along those lines), then they can no longer be a member. I think that is absolutely fine as it is a way to promote education. I'm just curious about your opinion and insight. Also, if you have any links that show your points, I would love to see them.

 

[klpotte3]

@lumiere Of course! Everybody learns so much more from a conversation than from a screaming match lol.

Yes. The FDC breeders aren't ideal. They really should be doing all the health testing and getting some sort of proof that the dogs have stable temperaments. But they are miles above puppy mills and better than the majority of back yard breeders.

So. By GANA do you mean the golden doodle association of North America?

I did a quick search on them.

https://www.goldendoodleassociation.com/about-gana/health-testing-requirements/

Here's their page about what they require from their breeders. For basic membership they only require hips and heart to be tested. Now, there are a lot more health tests than that that should be done.

They also have three tiers of membership.
Bacis: requires just hips and heart
Red: requires hips, heart, eyes, pra, von willlebrand (kind of, they say it wont be reuaired anymore after 1/1/19),
Now this is where it gets a little confusing. The chart says there are two more tests ( GRPRA2 and NEWS) that need to be done for red ribbon status, but the text says that those are only required for blue ribbon status.
Blue: everything that red requires plus elbows, patellas, GRPRA1, ICH and DM

https://ofa.org/chic-programs/browse-by-breed/
These are the health tests for a standard poodle. Note, hips and eye exams must be done. Then they have a list of three more tests and say to do at least one of them. These tests are Thyroid, heart, and sebaceous adenitis. In terms of poodles, GANA only encourages a hip and eye exam to be done. Now, they really should be doing that third/fourth/fifth test. And keep in mind, to be a basic member you only need to do hips and heart on applicable dogs. They don't recommend heart on poodles so for the standard poodles you'd just need to do their hips.

https://ofa.org/chic-programs/browse-by-breed/
Here are the health tests for a miniature poodle. They need to hage PRA, eyes, patellas, and hips.

https://ofa.org/chic-programs/browse-by-breed/
And toy poodles need PRA, patellas, hips.

Now, they're not encouraging everyone to do all of these tests. Patellas and eye issues are super common in small dogs and the only ones screening for that would be red breeders (only for eyes) and blue breeders (eyes and patellas). So they are letting people with incomplete health testing be members of their organization.

Goldens need hips, eyes, elbows, and cardiac.

If they just did hips and heart they could be basic members. So they're not really trying to get everyone to do all the necessary health testing.

They also say having a Dr. Wallace report for hips is fine. I have never heard of the Dr. Wallace report before and googling didn't really give me much, so if you have some resources on that I'd love to see them.

Now, I have a few more issues:

To qualify for hips, the say this:
"Prelim OFA or Dr. Wallace report for hip scores of Fair, Good, Excellent, for x-rays taken 4 mos. of age or later. Note that for any dog receiving a Fair rating prior to age of 2 yrs. (OFA prelim rating or Wallace report), a Final OFA or Wallace report with x-rays taken after 2 yrs. of age or later is required to remain as a qualified breeding dog"

To me, it sounds like if you get a preliminary score of good or excellent that's good enough for them and they think breeding off of these results is fine. Now it's really not, because hips change as dogs age. I have seen dogs go from good hips at a year old to fair hips at just over two. So they are encouraging breeding off of preliminary results. That's really not good.

For cardiac, they say this:
"OFA Permanent heart clearance (Golden Retrievers and Goldendoodles only). A stud may qualify for breeding prior to the age of one with a OFA Cardiac prelim clearance. In this circumstance, the stud will need to have a OFA Cardiac final clearance after the age of one."

So they think breeding a dog that's under a year old is ok? It's definitely not. You can't have full health tests done at that age.

I took a quick peek at their code of ethics and all they want is a two year health guarantee for genetic diseases. Now, this is a problem. What if the dog develops hip dysplasia? They're breeding dogs with prelim results so it could happen. What happens if the dog has progressive rod cone degeneration? It's genetic, but it only shows up at 3-5 years old. What about GR-PRA1, which shows up at 6-7 years old?

Now, my question is, to what extent do they enforce any of their goals/requirements?

I will go through some of their breeders later and see whether they're actually doing the health testing GANA seems to be encouraging.

Overall, I'm not very impressed. I think the breed clubs of the poodle and golden retriever are much better resources.

The poodle club has a super comprehens list of health issues and how to test for them. https://poodleclubofamerica.org/health-concerns/
If breeding doodles, I recommend consulting this website to learn about health testing as it is much more comprehensive and it's quite easy to understand.

https://grca.org/about-the-breed/health-research/health-screenings-for-the-parents-of-a-litter/
And here's the website for goldens. It's quite comprehensive. If you wanted to use goldens or golden mixes in a breeding program I would point you toward this website, and not GANA.

GANA did miss some things that the breed clubs recommend, like annual eye exams by a board certified opthalmologist for all dogs used for breeding.

I believe GANA started off with the right goals but they're encouraging breeding with incomplete health tests so that's a huge, huge, huge red flag.

I will be going through a few of their breeders later just to see if they're doing health testing. If you'd like to see them, here's the link:
https://www.goldendoodleassociation.com/guest/memberbreeders.aspx

One thing I noticed while just scrolling through the list is that almost all of them are blue ribbon members, so they should be doing quite comprehensive health testing.

You also asked about links to show my points. What exactly are you interested in? I use the OFA website for just a quick check on what health tests breeds need. I have linked that above. If I'm taking a super close look I'll also consult the websites of the breed clubs for their information on health testing as sometimes they have a few tests they recommend but that aren't mandatory. I have also posted the links to golden and poodle clubs of America, so you can take a look at those if you like. If you're still wondering where I'm getting some information from or if you're curious about other organizations or breeders please let me know and I'll do my best to get you that info.

 

[lumiere]

@klpotte3 Wow. Thanks for all that information. I mainly asked for links so I could go back and reference any information I wasn't aware of.

So, a lot of the information about GANA I got was from this FDC podcast with the creator of GANA.

From what you said, my main issue with GANA is that they allow hip testing and breeding at such a young age. That just makes me uncomfortable. As for the tier system, it makes sense to me. They originally had only the blue ribbon level, and because of that, they only had very few breeders. The tier system is a way to bring newer breeders in and mentor them. So, yes, the lowest tier does not require much health testing, but if a breeder becomes a member at the lowest level they are required to move up a level within a year or be removed from the program. The ultimate goal is to get all the breeders to the blue ribbon tier, but they realize that some people need help to get there.

I need to get ready for work, so I don't have much time to deep dive into this topic, but I really appreciate the conversation.

 

[kempoutzzz]

@justdana On another hand, 11 days into heat is too early. When the female hits the 3-5 days of breeding phase, the male will be more interested. He’s still too young for sure. It usually takes 2-3 weeks of heat then 3-5 days of mating then the rest is heat till it ends.