My Dog Is Really Bad w/ Boyfriends 7yo Son. HELP!

[katlyngiberson]

Hello all, new to this sub but desperately seeking some helpful advice.

I have a 9yo male (neutered) rat terrier mix, Ziggy. I’ve had him since he was about 1yo. He’s generally chill all day, perfectly sweet and calm with me, was with my exboyfriend, who I lived with, and people he’s familiar with. He can be apprehensive with new people, will usually bark at them a bit, but generally gets over it within a couple minutes and warms up to them. He’s very reactive though, barks like crazy at the mail every single day, barks at anybody who walks by our house, barks and or chases any cats that come into my yard, etc. I do my best to stop that behavior, I don’t let him carry on, I’ll take him inside, crate him if he’s being rude, but admittedly, I haven’t put enough work into training it out of him. I guess I was content getting by with this bar behavior for the rest of his life, knowing it mainly only affected me.

However, now I am dating a new man, for a year now. Ziggy warmed up to him very quickly, and actually really loves him. All was well until we tried to introduce Ziggy to my boyfriends 7yo son a few months ago. He absolutely went insane, barking, jumping, and pulling at his leash, attempting to get to him. Son was obviously nervous, especially so having little experience with dogs. I feel Ziggy reads his nervousness and it makes him ever more crazy.

We’ve made small progress since the first interaction but I feel like he just regresses immediately. We’ve all gone on group walks and Ziggy will be fine with bfs son, even let him pet him, but as soon as we get back to bfs house he’s back to barking and yanking on his leash. I haven’t and won’t let him off leash, I’m afraid he’ll bite bfs son as it seems like his prey drive is being activated. So usually I’ll just crate Ziggy when I’m at their house, or keep him on a leash next to me, and he’ll lay down and chill until bfs son walks by, and then he’s up barking at him again.

It’s devastating me because we want to move in together and this is a huge hurdle preventing that. I feel like such a bad pet parent and I don’t know what to do.

Would hiring a good trainer be helpful in this situation? I’m at a loss

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@katlyngiberson Do not force interactions. Foster neutrality. A trainer should definitely be able to help. Look for a positive trainer. Punishing the dog for his discomfort will get him to mask the warning signs, not learn to be comfortable. Get them used to the sight of each other. Sometimes the easiest way to do this is with the dog behind a baby gate where he can watch the kid watch TV. When the kid gets up or walks by that room, have him toss a high value treat in the dog's room without talking to our even looking at the dog too much. See how long it takes for them both to be chill and used to that.

 

[katlyngiberson]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Thank you for your advice! I definitely don’t punish him for barking, mainly just try to get him to be calm and sit down. It works until there’s any movement basically.
That’s funny, we did just buy a baby gate thinking it might be more helpful than having him in his crate where he tends to just go to sleep. I’ve had bfs son give Ziggy treats but I like the idea of him tossing them over the gate. Generally Ziggy off leash tends to be more comfy, so hoping this new set up works on the next visit.

 

[aveotheotokos]

@katlyngiberson Having someone toss treats to the dog can create problems, so be careful. What can happen is that the dog’s food drive will encourage them to approach the person, but then realize “oh shit - I don’t like this person”, and then they react. I almost got my father in law but this way when I first started working with my rescue Aussie. He’s great now, but it came from me training him, rewarding good behaviors and fairly correcting unwanted behaviors.

Correcting unwanted behaviors fairly does not mask warning signs, but communicates to the dog what is acceptable and then allows you to reward the wanted behaviors. This was a critical part of us working with our “formerly reactive” Aussie.

 

[grace92]

@aveotheotokos

Having someone toss treats to the dog can create problems, so be careful. What can happen is that the dog’s food drive will encourage them to approach the person, but then realize “oh shit - I don’t like this person”, and then they react.

This is 100% my experience with my working line gsd. Almost got a few people bit doing this. If anything, we’d have them toss the treat away. Now we just manage her with a muzzle until she’s comfortable with guests, which happens after a few hours. We tell our guests to act like she doesn’t exist. Don’t reach out to her to pet, make eye contact, even when she comes up for the initial sniff investigation. She eventually learns they’re okay and chills.

Correcting unwanted behaviors fairly does not mask warning signs, but communicates to the dog what is acceptable and then allows you to reward the wanted behaviors.

Can you elaborate on fair corrections? Sometimes my knee jerk reaction is to correct when she growls, but I try to remember not to suppress her warning. So we usually just walk away, but I know that’s not an actual correction.

 

[aveotheotokos]

@grace92 Something that is well understood and studied in behavioral science, but oddly never really talked about in the context of dog training, is that to EXTINGUISH a behavior, a strong aversive stimulus is needed, such as a strong electric shock to teach a mouse not to go to one part of its enclosure, but a much lower aversive can be used to SUPPRESS a behavior. Suppressing the behavior does not make it go away long term, but instead temporarily stops it.

So what I mean by “fair corrections” is a prong collar pop just strong enough to stop the build stage of reactivity. trying to correct full on reactivity in process doesn’t work in my experience, so it’s important to interrupt it at the first stages of the build. I describe this point as where my dog’s military grade targeting radar would just start to lock on. A slight pop, just strong enough to interrupt and suppress the behavior, and then heavily reward the wanted behavior. When the dog stops, looks at you and displays the wanted behaviors, it’s reward time. Whatever your dog values, you, attention, food, toys….My dog loves all four so I use them all…. This way you can train what you really need, which is neutrality, and your dog learns to focus on and trust you.

Then the dogs can make good decisions and progress goes fast. They quickly learn the right behaviors, and counter conditioning is far far far more effective.

I’m not trying to extinguish the reactivity, but rather suppress it temporarily so the dog can get rewarded for the correct behavior. This is absolutely critical, because it absolutely defies logic to think the most effective way to stop an unwanted behavior and replace it with another is to ignore the unwanted behavior.

We need to communicate what behaviors are Okay, and which are not. Imagine you had kids, and every time guests come over they start yelling at the guests and throwing things at them, and I tell you never to communicate to your kinds this is wrong, never punish them for the problematic behaviors, but “here is a bag of gummy worms, let’s get to work!”. Yep that would be stupid, but before anyone goes off, no, I’d never use a prong collar on my kids, just like I’d never correct my dog by taking away his car key, cell phone or shutting off the wifi. Corrections need to be species appropriate. And with our kids we have the added advantage that we speak the same language.

Also, the claim that correction just hide the behavior and then the dog will bite without warning because it’s been conditioned not to show warning signs is complete bull shit and a “bogeyman” argument. Just pop on over to r/reactivedogs where there are many posts from people who are told to euthanize this dogs because they bite without warning after working with behaviorists and R+ training. Yes, some dogs will bite without warning, or without the owners recognizing the warning signs, but claiming it’s caused by correcting unwanted behaviors is easily proven false.

So yes, correct mildly when she growls, but then reward for her looking at you, and not growling. If you can get to where she does not growl, but looks at the scary stimulus, reward. Don’t try to intentionally put her into a bad situation, but when she does react inappropriately, correct, but then quickly follow up with rewards for focusing on you or doing basic obedience.

 

[grace92]

@aveotheotokos This is an incredible response. Thank you so much for taking the time to write all of this out and making it so easy to understand.

Also, the claim that correction just hide the behavior and then the dog will bite without warning because it’s been conditioned not to show warning signs is complete bull shit and a “bogeyman” argument. Just pop on over to r/reactivedogs where there are many posts from people who are told to euthanize this dogs because they bite without warning after working with behaviorists and R+ training. Yes, some dogs will bite without warning, or without the owners recognizing the warning signs, but claiming it’s caused by correcting unwanted behaviors is easily proven false.

And this is what has had me confused before. I have had a tendency to get so much info from so many sources and I have seen this a lot. I do like a more balanced/LIMA type of approach to training, but for some reason got caught up in the “suppress the warning growl” fear. I have only heard that from the force free, positive reinforcement community. I don’t think many purely positive force free owners and trainers have had a working line gsd.

 

[aveotheotokos]

@grace92 I honestly believe that when a dog “bites without warning” the vast majority of the time it is because the owners completely missed the dogs body language and warning signs.

Now, if the FF crowd claimed that punishment only training, such as only using an ecollar on maximum levels to stop the dog from reacting 100% out of fear of a high stim, I’d believe that. That logically makes sense that it could happen in that scenario, but with reasonable and fair corrections and rewards for the correct behavior? Nope, does not happen.

 

[aveotheotokos]

@grace92 This is prob the best vid on YouTube on how to do this. Note that it’s almost all reward based, but in the end of the vid he talks about how to deal with the unwanted reactions.

This process worked for me and my “formerly reactive” Aussie.

 

[grace92]

@aveotheotokos Interesting that you got downvoted for a Michael Ellis video. He’s such a fantastic trainer. Thank you.

 

[aveotheotokos]

@grace92 Yep, I suspect this is one example of Force Free trolls here….

The FF crowd will downvote, but never engage in an honest debate because they know they simply will look like fools who can not defend their position in a logical, consistent manner.

 

[grace92]

@aveotheotokos Probably why Zack George has avoided Robert Cabral’s requests to have a conversation about FF vs balanced training. He cannot admit that clickers and treats don’t stand a chance at training mastiffs and working breeds or for behavior modification. By not allowing anything besides tossing treats or avoiding triggers, he’s basically signing off on either a dog being confined to a home or being euthanized.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@aveotheotokos I'm so happy you've had success with your Aussie. Every dog is different and owners sometimes have trouble being "fair" in corrections when everyone is scared of a reactions. It is absolutely true that punishing warning signs can extinguish them but not the fight or flight experience the dog is having. They just silently are forced to let it build until they explode.

 

[aveotheotokos]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Just more dishonest disinformation.

We can see in r/reactivedogs that dogs trained with force free methods and visiting vet behaviorists can attack their owners without apparent warning. Yes, in some cases dogs may bite without warning, but claiming it’s caused by any use of aversive as a weak argument that ignores many facts.

I personally find it fascinating that many in the r+ crowd is so devoted to their ideology that they are completely unwilling to even discuss methods that many people are getting great results with (far better than achieved with r+ only methods as seen in other dog subs).

Two force free trainers recommended “BE” for my Aussie before I adopted him, because their methods only made him worse. These trainers had the owners try to “distract the dog with high value treats”. He learned that threatening to eat people got him food. The worse he acted, the better the treats became. Simply reinforced the wrong behaviors.

I’ve worked with far too many reactive dogs, and know many people who use these methods, and NONE have been bitten by their dogs after training had started. claiming it’s caused by using aversive it just saying “there’s a boogie man in closet that is going to get you”.

I fully agree that reward based training is the best method to train new behaviors, but watching r/reactivedogs clearly shows force free methods have very limited success with reactive dogs. Seems like they have all accepted that their methods don’t work, so they continuously call for euthanizing dogs.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@aveotheotokos There are quick fix trainers out there who just punish without any positive training. That's what I'm warning this nice lady against because those trainers do more harm than good. For this dog, in this situation, probably all she needs is positive methods. I'm not a force free trainer. I don't disagree with most of what you are saying.

 

[zeebird]

@aveotheotokos Here's a sneak peek of /r/reactivedogs using the top posts of the year!

#1: I rehomed my reactive dog yesterday to a woman with 160 acres of mountain property and within 10 minutes of being there she was happier than I've seen her since I adopted her

#2: Why do people with small reactive dogs get a pass?

#3: I broke down at the dog park today.

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[radikal]

@katlyngiberson What is a good trainer? Hiring a trainer who gets results and a consistent change in that behavior with your particular dog will help. Look for trainers who have had experience with aggression.

I think you're right. Eventually, if the dog is allowed to continue in this behavior he is likely to bite. The adrenaline can eventually become it's own reward. Also, it's a lot of stress on both the child and the dog. Tell any trainer you interview you are afraid of harm to a child and that this is very very serious business to you. And it is. Ask them their success rate with aggressive dogs. I wouldn't use the term "reactive" as that term is being used by various people for many various behaviors. I would use "aggressive". Stay away from anyone who suggests euthanization or isolation. Your dog can definitely get better.

& Although your dog is displaying definite aggressive behavior, he may not be a truly aggressive dog. He may have just sailed through life with no real corrections or boundaries. The fact he basically likes people makes me think that. A trainer will go through why that behavior is, but the bottom line is he can not be allowed to bite or terrorize a child.

Sad_Preparation709 had an really excellent reply here BTW. Might be worth reading more than once. You may or may not need a prong. A slip might do it, or even possibly a flat collar. But if the dog is choking himself on a slip or flat you may want to go to something else as it's less stress ultimately on the dog. Do not use a prong until someone teaches you how. You want a light hand and a quick pop - probably a light pop - and definitely not sustained pressure. Sustained pressure will make things worse. You also need to learn good timing and why timing and reading your dog's body language is important.

 

[johnm8269]

@katlyngiberson If the boy is nervous, your dog is sensing the fear and reacting to it. A trainer can help in this situation. Never punish a dog for reacting to someone's fear. for the dog can smell it. Also need to work with the boy on his fear of dogs. Forcing them to like each other only makes matter worse for both. It can take time, but with love and care, both can be friends. But take the time to work with each one.

 

[katlyngiberson]

@johnm8269 Ziggy was aggressive before the boy was nervous unfortunately. I’d say he’s more cautious than nervous, he really wants Ziggy to like him l and I think it makes him sad that he doesn’t.

 

[brianehall]

@katlyngiberson Actually just went through this about six months ago with my girlfriend. She has two dogs. The lab was super friendly but her Jack Russell was a nightmare to deal with initially. What worked for us was meeting him outside in a neutral environment with him on a leash. I started very far away like 15-20 feet and would throw treats at him without eye contact. Several throws and a couple of minutes go by and I narrowed the distance. Really look for the cues your dog is putting out before they start barking like what the tail and ears are doing. I feel like it didn't take more than 10 minutes before I could pet him. This was after about a months worth of visits where he would constantly bark at me and she would eventually crate him. After that I tried to bond with him by taking him out on walks and playing fetch with him. About one or two visits later and we were thick as thieves.

I think the real tricky part you have is you are dealing with a child and it's gotta be so much harder for them to not be nervous. Nervous energy 100 percent will trigger their prey drive. While researching this I came across a video that demonstrated this. It's frightening how quickly it can amplify their behavior.

Hopefully some of that was helpful . Good luck!