Loose Leash Walking : How do I make him get it ?

@doks Yes, during the LLW he does okay. I feel like he breaks too often, but that's just me hoping he gets it more. But I really feel like he doesn't understand why sometimes I say no and back up. He knows that to keep moving forward he needs to get back next to me but it looks like it's unclear why it happens... And I don't know how to teach him that ...

I can't film in the streets where there are more distractions, because I'd get my phone stolen, but he's really on or off in the street, sometimes he'll be focused 100% on me, and at other times he'll be just sniffing around and not paying attention to me !
 
@nicolas19 I think you need to define what you want ... a formal heel where he looks at you, or a LLW where the point is really just not to be an asshole and not pull.

My formal heel = heads up, pure focus, snapped to my thigh, etc. I only use this for competitions.

My LLW = don't be a dick. Stay within the length of the leash, not pulling. Pay attention to verbal cues.
 
@doks Definitely looking for a LLW, but from discussions in here it sounds like Heel may be easier to teach and a better heel could lead to an easier LLW... I don't know. But clearly what I'm looking for he just him adapting to my pace, being attentive to what I'm doing but I'm okay with him sniffing or looking at things or whatever... Just not pulling and stoping when I stop...
 
@nicolas19
  1. Like @doks said, you def need to be rewarding the correct position so he knows what to do in addition to what not to do. I used super high value treats when very first teaching this to my pup.
  2. Again, just IME: animals VERY quickly get desensitized to yanking, popping, etc. in the face of the ultimate reward: forward movement. What I do is give them the exact opposite of what they want for offering a behavior contrary to what I want (pulling on the leash). If you take 1 step forward and the leash goes tight, back up, immediately. Not U-turn, which just lets them move forward in a different direction. If the animal (I do this with dogs and horses both) really wants forward, this is a FAR better correction than any sort of positive punishment. Then you stand there perfectly still until he remembers step 1 and returns to your side (I also wait for eye contact. If my pup is being really distracted and rude, I wait for a sit *and* eye contact). Treat and/or praise, then try again. One step. Leash goes tight, you back up again. He can NEVER be allowed to move forward when the leash is tight, at all. Even if it means literally 45 minutes of slowly moving backwards/stagnating at your original startoff point. Personally when just starting off, I'm fairly forgiving and will do 2 steps back for every 1 step they try to pull forward. Once I KNOW the animal knows what I want, they get a solid 3-4 steps back instead. IME if this method is failing it's due to handler inconsistency, so give that a shot if you haven't already. :)
 
@glo22inc Sounds like what I'm doing but it feels like he's taking my stops and back steps as if they're random.

He literalky jumps back ti heel position, maybe he knows that's what gets us forward again, maybe he knows sometimes a yank will come if I'm too frustrated, but then he goes back to pulling right away... He doesn't seem to understand that I stoped because he pulled.
 
@glo22inc Very impressive !
Yes maybe I tolerate a bit too much of pulling, though I try and stop and back up as soon as I feel the leash get tensed but maybe I'm not being fast enough.
I try and always give him the same amount of leash so he can have the same radius around me very time and so he can see how much on the side, ahead or behind me he can get without getting out of the acceptable zone.
I'm fine if he stays next to me in a heel but I'm not really looking for that. If he wants to get ahead and sniff something while I pass by that's fine for me, I just want the leash to be loose... But looking at the feedback in here it looks like I should focus on heel instead and the loose leash will maybe be much easier to teach then !
Impressive videos, I'd love to have my dog listening so well, very nice work you've done there and gorgeous pup !
 
@nicolas19 Yeah, I really would suggest taking up some leash for teaching purposes and giving it back to him after he understands what you want from him better. That plus teaching heel should definitely get you an easier time, I think. But good luck and do keep us updated, and thank you very much re: my pupperino 💖💖💖 she is my good girl and I'm very fond of her. She seems to like me OK too most days 😂😂
 
@nicolas19 Hi doing but it feels like he's taking my stops and back steps as if they're random.

he literalky jumps back ti heel position, maybe he knows that's what gets us forward again, maybe he knows sometimes a yank will come if , I'm dad.
 
@nicolas19 E collar.

Prong will work but it's easy to get frustrated in the beginning and give up too quickly.

You've got to match the drive too. Better to have harsh correction in the beginning so that he won't gradually become tolerating to that.

Once a good heel is trained it's almost permanent. The same with recall using E collar.

Good thing with E collar is that it works quickly but still will take about 1 month of diligent and consistent work to proof in different scenario with different distractions.
 
@peter67 I'm wary of those easy solutions, I'd been told the same with the prong, and the slip lead... Not that I'm against the tool itself but I feel like the issue is either in ly dog's soacial awareness or in my ability to make him understand that the issue is his pulling but I'm not convinced a different tool would fix that.
How do you feel the ecollar works better than the prong ?
 
@nicolas19 In your training video, you dog seemed to do okay but there are actually a few issues.

First the heel is very loose, the accuracy of position is lacking, you constantly adjusted for him his position after each stop. He never self-adjusted, suggesting he is either not aware or not willing to get to his position. He almost seemed to understand heel as a way to get food. A good test is to try to walk, stop and then back a step. And see if he follows that backing step. You should eventually be able to get to a point where he understands to watch your left leg (instead your upper body) for positioning. For example, step your left leg out ward and teach him to follow or step your left leg back etc..Teach him it is the left leg that you want him to be next to. That way, when you do sharp left turns it'll work.

Second, heel is obedience and obedience involves self control and impulse control. You want to wean off food b/c food is lure and extra motivation and it is the opposite. Unless you use high value food and use negative punishment. It's good to introduce heel but not good for proofing heel. I was stuck with very inconsistent heel when I only used food. Later on I used prong collar and had to do a lot of corrections. But one day my dog suddenly got it. The key is to demand a high standards and not settle for anything less from your dog. You teach what a heel position means and anything even a few inches of his head extending out of heel should be corrected very consistently. Teach him that you never settle for less than perfect heel. One thing I do is I repeat "heel" command until my dog self adjust a few times to a perfect position. At this time you can actually reward.

Also, at heel, he should not stand side ways and look at your for food. Instead he should face forward and his body parallel to you.

E collar works better than prong in correcting for heel because it's quick and precise to apply correction. The moment he did not stop at the heel and walked past the heel you should say "heel" and apply stim. You look for that "stepping back" or self correction from your dog. There might be days when you need to apply a high level stim. After he got what a heel is, you can actually verbally correct after you suddenly stop.
 
@peter67 On the training walks, especially in a quiet place like in the video he indeed does okay. I just shot another video, it's uploading, you'll see the return to heel position has gotten a bit better, though slow today, but I wasn't moving to cue him into position so that could be why. I'll post the video shortly.

Indeed heel is the way for him to get the food, because I'm delivering it at my side, and when he's behind me. But the idea that if he actually stayed in a heel position he wouldn't have to back up to get the food doesn't occur to him. I've tried to reward double with more praise when he's stayed by my side and just one when he was ahead and had to come back to a heel, but he didn't seem to notice the difference.
Yeah, at some point I've felt like loose leash was too difficult for him to understand and that heel could probably be easier for him to grasp as it's much more precise. I always use the same leash, attached to my waist so it's always the same length but I did feel like it was hard for him to be consistent in that...
Right now I don't think he understands the heel yet but I see your point about weening off food at some point. I'm looking forward to not being delivery treats with greasy drool hands on walks !
Noted for the ecollar. I'm not planing on getting one at the moment, for the price maybe I can have a session with a trainer that would help me with that and other issues I have so I'm not sure right now...
Thanks for the input, will let you know when the new video is up ! (Edit it's uploaded, links in the post)
 
@nicolas19 In your second video your dog is doing much better.
I've been through this and still going through rehabbing my fear aggressive dog. One thing I learned from training is that dogs learn fast.

When there appeared to be a blockage in progress for months, it is time to re-evaluate what's not working.
Your dog has a good energy and temperament, as seen from videos. I am pretty confident the pulling on leash can be solved in month time. You'll just to find the right method.
I'd say pulling on leash is natural normal behavior and heeling properly is actually a learned thing. It'll take overcoming drive, discipline and consistency on structure during walking, until it becomes a new habit for the dog.
Also I use a short leash but it is always loose leash. I have a feeling by changing the leash length you'll have an immediate progress.
Best luck!
 
@nicolas19 Ecollar will fix this in one session, and maybe some touch ups. But frankly you should teach an ecollar heel and that way you don't even need a leash (sort of).
 
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