Loose Leash Walking : How do I make him get it ?

[nicolas19]

So I've adopted my dog a year ago. He was 5, dog reactive and initially quite a lot to manage. After quite a bit of work I've gotten him to a point where he'll meet other dogs off leash at the park and be fine with it. He's always a bit cautious but once he's had his sniff and sees the dog is nice he'll move on... On the leash not much has changed. He doesn't lunge at just the sound of a dog anymore, and if he sees one far enough his excitement will build up slower than before, but crossing path with another dog without a scene never happens despite all the work I do to work on that, but it's another topic.

Anyway, through the last year, I've been also trying to get him to not pull on the leash. When I got him he was pulling constantly, literally... The leash was never loose. Over the times I've developed strategies that more or less worked to get him closer to me on walks. Popping the leash a bit every time my leash hand goes behind me, so he gets constant reminders that the limit is where he is, stoping having him come back to me and starting over, U Turns... Now a year later, he's still always at the limit of the leash. It's not as bad as before, and when he's tired he'll stay next to me, but unlike we've biked for an hour right before, he'll be at the limit, always.

I've tried harsher ways, prong collar (he got used to it, of course), I've tried yanking him, he'll come back to me, and as soon as I walk he'll go to the end of the leash. I've tried positive only, the 300 pecks method, we've been up to 35 steps more or less consistently for a while, but if I'm not religiously leash training him, he's back to pulling constantly...

I honestly don't know what to do anymore, it's like he just doesn't get it that being next to me is good and being too far ahead is bad, no matter how I try to get him to wrap is head around that. I feel like I've given every method I've heard of a good run, doing it every day for at least a week if not a month... It has improved a bit, but overall walking him is still a pain... It's like he's just doing his thing while I'm behind him trying to see incoming dogs before he does to avoid a scene...

I really don't know what to do... Maybe he'll just never understand that his positioning matters ? Maybe he doesn't get that when there's pressure on the leash from behind he's supposed to slow down or stop (he understands leash pressure on the sides)... Maybe I've been doing everything wrong... I don't know but any advice would be welcome, I'm just frustrated, it's the year anniversary of his adoption and I don't see myself making much progress in the upcoming years and it's frustrating !

Edit : here's a video of one of the many methods I've tried :

he does okay in this very quiet place but he's constantly looking for the foid. As soon as we step outside he just choses to focus on me or to go where he pleases... As if the training was a gape he's not playing anymore and my back and forth is unrelated and just random and annoying...

Edit 2 : I went out and shot a couple of videos this morning here they are :

and

. This was right after a 45 minutes bike ride so he was pretty low energy. I try not to cue him back into a heel position so he was going fairly slowly.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@nicolas19 With a dog with a long history of pulling my first choice would be to find an open space and put him on a 20-30 foot line. Use changing your direction to make it the dog's responsibility to know where you are, rather than your responsibility to tell him when he's out of position.

Also might be worth getting a trainer for a lesson or two to look at what you're doing. Generally when we feel like we've tried everything, it's not what we're doing that's the problem but how we're doing it and a second set of eyes can catch those little details that make a difference.

 

[nicolas19]

@imagebeastmarkbeast He does great on lead, looks at me frequently and follows me very well but the leash just seems too short. Unfortunately there are many narrow streets where I live and I can't have him on a long leash.

I'm considering a trainer as well, as you said there must be something I'm doing wrong but I can't figure out what it is...

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@nicolas19 The idea of the long line is to then transition back to a shorter leash when the dog is successful. But based on the video there is no need for it, he is more advanced than I was imagining and it really looks pretty nice!

A few details and suggestions on how to advance toward "real world" walking:

• try to stop and treat earlier when he is in position rather than after he gets ahead of you. If he does get ahead of you, I would reset (back up a step or turn around) but not treat that. Corrections if you're using them would also be earlier, at your leg as if there's a barrier there (think of it at blocking him from getting out of position rather than correcting him once he has gotten out of position)
• try to intentionally treat when he is in position but NOT looking at you. I think this really helps isolate that the criteria is position. On longer walks we don't want the dog looking at us constantly, so we don't want the dog to think that if he isn't looking at us he has no chance of being rewarded for polite walking
• do you have a release cue? helps the dog know when he's working and when he's free to do what he wants. Sniffing, marking, greeting people depending on the dog can be much higher value than a treat and you can use them as rewards for loose leash walking if you put them on cue
• practice a moving leave it, more or less the same thing you're doing in the video but past a distraction like a bowl of food on the ground. The closer you are the more difficult it will be.
• might be helpful, though not necessary, to teach him these two component skills: back up on leash pressure, and find heel position independently

 

[nicolas19]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Thanks for the details feedback !
In the video I'm not trying to prevent him from being ahead of me, I just don't want him pulling. Maybe that's part of the issue though, I don't know, but for me the goal was that as long as he wasn't pulling that was okay for me, ahead, behind, besides me, all was fine..
In the video and recently I was doing the 300 pecks methods, so count the steps, on success increase by one step before reward, on failure go back to one. Maybe I should do it with a heel position instead of just a loose leash...
I'd see that advice about giving the treat when the dog is looking away, and I try and do that when I'm not doing something as structured as I was there. But it definitely feels like he's thinking I'm rewarding focus on me and at some point either gets bored of waiting or more interested in something else...
I do have a release cue that he knows fairly well now. I use it for sniffs, when I take off the leash or after recalling him.
There was a ball in the yard when I went to shoot a new video so I did that and he did okay... But we've had a 45 minutes bike ride this morning so he's always calmer and more focused after that.
Back up on leash pressure, definitely something he doesn't understand. Not sure how you'd teach him that ? Gently pull and reward for coming towards me ? Heel position is getting better. Was a bit slow today, he tends to be faster usually but I was trying to not gesture anything so that could be why, usually I look at my heels as his cue.
Will link to the video when it's uploaded ! (Edit it's uploaded, links in the post)

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@nicolas19 Okay, he understands how to find heel position and it's obvious that you've worked with him quite a bit. 1:32 in the first video and 1:14 in the second video are both great, he's splitting his attention between you and the environment which is exactly what I look for.

Is your goal to have him not pull (as in, when he hits the end of the leash he comes back to you)? Or to have him never hit the end of the leash?

It looks like he knows when he hits the end of the leash he should come back to you (what does he do if he hits the end of the leash and you don't stop?) but he has no idea that he shouldn't hit the end of the leash...

People mean different things by loose leash walk, and ultimately it's down to your preference. I prefer to have the dog in an informal heel because, well, the dog's eyes are in the front of his head so if he's in front of me he can't know where I am except through feeling the leash (or turning his head sideways to look).

1. formal heel for competition - staring at me, spine straight, glued to my leg (full attention)
2. informal heel/LLW- dog is within 2-3 foot bubble but not ahead of me, he is generally not looking directly at me but is aware of where I am (split attention)
3. not pulling/LLW - leash is slack, when the dog hits the end of the leash he slows down or comes back. You already have this, or close to it!

To teach back up with leash pressure, have him at your side between you and a wall. Gently pull the leash straight backward. Release, mark, and treat for stepping backward. At first accept any tiny step or even just leaning backward, then work up to a few steps in a row.

Besides that, I think you're on the right track. You can break up your walks so it's short stretches of LLW and in between release him to go sniff (no need for loose leash), or do a few sits and downs or any tricks he likes, or play fetch if he likes that. And keep working with distraction set ups. Make it harder by having him get the distraction as a reward, eg. put a handful of kibble in the bowl and LLW up to it and then release him to eat it.

 

[nicolas19]

@imagebeastmarkbeast When he pulls I'd like for him to simply adjust his speed to be a bit closer to me but that's about it. Right now we walk back and reset but I'd be okay if he just paused for a sec and waited for me to catch up, or whatever... What I don't want is him to continuously pull on the leash as if I'm not there... I'd find it easier if he was at my side or slightly behind me, as he'd be able to see me, but because I'm okay with him kind sniffing around and peeing, as long as he's not too far ahead or behind I guess if he's ahead he gets time to sniff and then move on as I walk past him...
If he hits the end of the leash and I don't stop he just keeps pulling more and more... That's the annoying part, as soon as I give up just a bit, or decide to tolerate a little bit of pulling he just goes one step further and again and again until my arm is fully extended and I feel like I'm water skiing...
I'll try that for back pressure, but thinking of it he kind of does it... Really the issue is transitioning to the street... To the quiet ones, to the busy ones... I'm wondering when it'll click for him and he'll get it because I still feel like he's not really understanding why sometimes he's doing good and sometimes bad... Thanks for the encouragements though !

 

[thehallelujahhollerer]

@nicolas19 How is his heeling?

With mine I tried all the usually tricks recommended, but for some reason he didn't get it until he learned formal heeling. I've never had a dog have an issue like that before, but for whatever reason it connected the dots for him. He took to heeling immediately and loose leash was never an issue after that. It was like he needed more formal parameters.

 

[nicolas19]

@thehallelujahhollerer I've tried heeling too. He breaks it fairly often but it doesn't seem to click in his mind... I can tell everything seems random to him, the rewards when he's doing good, the corrections when he gets ahead of me... It's like none of it makes sense... So he'll look at me and receive his treats for a while and then something will smell nice and he'll endure the corrections and back and forth to get there... If I turn around he'll trot to get ahead of me again...
I can't make him understand what I'm looking for...

 

[christiangirl5]

@nicolas19 Check out Jeff gellman Solidk9training on YouTube for proper use of prong collar. There’s no yanking involved it’s all subtle motions to communicate to the dog

 

[nicolas19]

@christiangirl5 Well I think I'm doing that. I've seen his videos, but they mostly involve dogs that aren't used to the prong. Mine was exactly like that the first time I put it on him, I felt like I was walking a floating coton ball cloud... And then over the next week he just got used to it and was almost back to his old habits... Not as bad but now if I'm doing the big yank he does my dog yelps, comes back to me and then goes back to pulling. If I do the small corrections throughout he just doesn't even notice it...

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@nicolas19 Is your prong collar fitted correctly? It should be tight. Tight enough that it's a little tough to get on and it should stay right up behind his ears. Let me know and we'll go from there.

 

[nicolas19]

@imagebeastmarkbeast It's not that tight anymore, I've seen a trainer who told me I had it too tight and needed to loosen it so I added one hook.

No matter how tight any collar is, none stay behind his ears though, I've never understood this advice... I'll try again and take pictures.

 

[bullmuse]

@nicolas19 It doesn't need to be that high, anything above mid-ish neck is fine. The higher it is, the more sensitive the correction.

 

[nicolas19]

@bullmuse Tried last night, forgot to take a picture, I had remove one hook, it was tighter but still wouldn't stay up on the neck... Maybe mid-ish but i'm not even sure...

 

[doks]

@nicolas19 Do you reward the correct position, in position?

 

[nicolas19]

@doks Yes, I think so. For like a months now I've been rewarding in motion, reward at my side slightly behind me even. Lately I'll reward every 35 steps and in a quiet place he can be somewhat consistent. And then one thing smells nice and we'll go back and forth multiple times until he gives up on it as if I didn't want him to sniff that when realky I just don't want him to pull me there...
When he pulls I back up a few steps, have him back in heel, praise but no reward and start walking again with a command...
I added a video on my post. Since then he's gotten quicker at getting in the heel position now, and beside me in the right direction as well...

 

[doks]

@nicolas19 My personal observations:

1. I'm not hearing any marking of behaviors (could just be the video didn't pick it up). Use your voice! Use a clicker, whatever, but there should be a solid verbal or non-verbal cue that the dog has performed the behavior, THEN the treat comes out.
2. Going by the way you're luring, I'd honestly argue that he doesn't actually know heel position. If you put a bowl next to you, and toss a treat and cue a heel, can your dog come in from any direction and find that position? If you need a video I can get one, but when you're rewarding, I think it's semi-accidental that he's there rather than a conscious choice. I could be wrong (hence why his butt is sideways).
3. I would personally introduce an environmental reward. If he loves that smell, do a nice heel and reward to that smell. It doesn't always have to be a reward from you. A 'go sniff' cue is super nice - it invites your dog to go do something s/he finds self-rewarding and relaxing.

 

[nicolas19]

@doks I do reward, I say yes when I've reached the step count and he hasn't pulled and returned to heel position. Same marker I use whenever he's executed a command properly. I have trouble sometimes focusing on the right order but most of the time I do Yes > Gesture to reward. Often I'll do both at the same time but I'm trying to fix that !
He's gotten better at the heel position, though he's not getting there so fast. Here's a video I've shot today :

the position isn't perfect but it's slowly getting better. Depending on how psyched he is he'll go back to it more or less quickly... Today was a slow day !
I try to introduce environment rewards but most of the time environment makes him break position so I try to not reinforce it... During walks he only seems to be either very interested or completely uninterested about things, so either it's too nice and he'll pull and break position or I'll release him and he'll just wait for me to keep going because he doesn't care. But I'll keep that in mind if he improves I'll definitely do that !

 

[doks]

@nicolas19

I try to introduce environment rewards but most of the time environment makes him break position so I try to not reinforce it

Your videos look great, some dogs are just slower at LLW'ing than others, I think you're on the right road here! I will say that environmental rewards SHOULD break position. That's the point of them, remember, rewards don't always need to be in position as long as the marker is clear. So instead of a 'yes', I cue 'go sniff' which means, we're done with this activity, go sniff, and then I call back into my LLW heel cue (for this, I use lets go).

If he's never had that cue before, sometimes it's easiest to capture it rather than trying to teach it. I actually taught my go sniff, by throwing a harness on the dogs, and going to a trial and marking 'go sniff' the moment I saw their heads snap around on a smell, or hit the group to 'track' something. Then I took that with me on a normal LLW training session. For Tesla, it was really what solidified our LLWing.