Looking for resources

[catholicdave]

Hi! I currently feed my 2yr old pit/shep (48lbs) the Acana Limited Ingredient Lamb & Apple, and I’m just thinking about switching to something else. not for any particular reason, I know there’s a bunch of drama about mars buying them, I don’t know much about that but my concern is that if there’s a formula change it’s going to upset my pups stomach. But my concern is our girl has hip dysplasia (it’s managed thru pain management and physiotherapy) so really really really has to stay at her weight (rn she is a 4/9 on the body condition scale).

I was wondering if anyone had any links to reputable scientific resources/papers that have information on the %’s you should look for in pet food for fat, protein, etc. also if anyone knows if there’s better food for dogs w/ hip dysplasia?

 

[sevilodorf]

@catholicdave You should speak to the vet but your best option is going to be a weigh management specific diet from a science backed brand.

Higher fiber and protein options are good ones

Pro plan, hills, and Royal Canin have excellent options.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5139085/

These ones may not be open access:

Lawler, D.F., Larson, B.T., Ballam, J.M., Smith, G.K., Biery, D.N., Evans, R.H., & Kealy, R.D. (2008). Diet restriction and ageing in the dog: major observations over two decades. British Journal of Nutrition, 99(4), 793-805.

Smith, G. K., Paster, E. R., Powers, M. Y., Lawler, D. F., Biery, D. N., Shofer, F. S., McKelvie, P. J., & Kealy, R. D. (2006). Lifelong diet restriction and radiographic evidence of osteoarthritis of the hip joint in dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 229(5), 690–693.

Kealy, R.D., Lawler, D.F., Ballam, J.M., Lust, G., Biery, D.N., Smith, G.K., & Mantz, S.L. (2000). Evaluation of the effect of limited food consumption on radiographic evidence of osteoarthritis in dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 217(11), 1678-1680

 

[catholicdave]

@sevilodorf Thank you! It’s too bad there isn’t more recent literature out there. I’m sure science has improved since 2008! I appreciate this as a jumping off point

 

[sevilodorf]

@catholicdave Im sure there is this was just what I have on hand! Sorry it’s not more comprehensive

 

[danieldior]

@catholicdave Acana was one of the foods that caused food related DCM in dogs

 

[catholicdave]

@danieldior From a 2021 Nature study exploring DCM and dog food: “Despite ongoing research efforts, understanding of whether diet may be involved in the observed DCM in dogs remains unclear. Standard nutritional analyses of the associated diets have failed to identify a causative factor and so other, more novel approaches are needed.” “While we cannot establish with certainty if any of these compounds and ingredients are causal for disease, the findings support peas as a leading possible ingredient associated with diet-associated DCM in dogs.”

The science isn’t conclusive on the “causing” DCM so I’d be careful about conflating correlation with causation, when the researchers themselves are very explicit in saying they can’t say for certain what is causing the increase in DCM. But based on the current finding of peas being the hypothesized culprit, I don’t feed my dog peas! Thank you for the input, but it wasn’t what I was asking about in my post

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94464-2

 

[sevilodorf]

@catholicdave The science is quite advanced on this given that it’s only been five years. While it’s not clear why this is happening, it’s quite clear that diet is linked. There are twelve peer reviewed studies supporting a link.

https://www.alltradesdvm.com/topics/diet-associated-dcm/dcm-qa

 

[catholicdave]

@sevilodorf Thank you for sharing this page with me. I took a look through the papers cited in the blog and there are some really intriguing aspects in each study's outcomes. However, it is important to acknowledge the limitations and conflicting findings present in these studies, which cautions against overstating their conclusions. While I acknowledge the existence of a dietary link, as the research indicates some form of connection, the true underlying cause remains inconclusive. As a researcher myself, with a master's degree and a strong belief in evidence-based and science-based facts, I understand the importance of not making broad sweeping statements that oversimplify the complex nature of the matter at hand. Looking closer at the papers that your link had (there were only 7 cited in that blog post so maybe I missed some):

⁃  Aldin et al. (2021) suggested that diet type impacted taurine levels, but they found no significant differences in echocardiographic variables or other cardiac biomarkers. Whereas Smith et al. (2021) found no differences in taurine levels between the diet groups. While both papers hint at a potential link between taurine deficiency and DCM, they also acknowledge the uncertain role of taurine. Even the FDA states that taurine is generally not considered an essential amino acid for dogs, as they can synthesize taurine from cysteine and methionine. Moreover, most grain-free products meet or exceed the minimum nutritional requirements for dogs.

⁃ Fried et al. (2020) discovered no significant differences in weight, body condition score, blood test results, presence of heart murmurs, arrhythmias, congestive heart failure (CHF), or echocardiographic measurements between dogs on traditional and nontraditional diets at the time of diagnosis. They also noted that survival time for dogs on traditional diets was not significantly longer than that of dogs on nontraditional diets.

Furthermore, it is worth mentioning that one of the studies cited in your blog post received an expression of concern from the editor regarding the validity of its conclusion statement (Ontiveros et al., 2020). The study claimed that grain-free diets, particularly those produced by small companies and including legumes within the top 5 ingredients, represent a risk for taurine deficiency and echocardiographic abnormalities consistent with DCM in golden retrievers. The expression of concern stems from concerns about the study's design and the conclusions drawn.

In addition, the sample size and composition of the studies should be taken into account. The authors themselves caution against extrapolating the research findings to other breeds not included in the studies. Two out of the seven papers exclusively focused on golden retrievers, a breed genetically predisposed to taurine deficiency potentially linked to DCM (Kaplan et al., 2018; Ontiveros et al., 2020). Most of the cited articles acknowledge the statistical limitations due to small sample sizes. The largest sample size in these studies consisted of only 188 dogs. However, a recent study from 2022 analyzed data from 68,297 dogs evaluated by veterinary cardiologists across the United States. It found no significant change in the percentage of dogs with DCM from 2000 to 2019, despite the increase in grain-free food sales (Quest et al., 2022).

Anyways, I don't believe there is a grand conspiracy theory orchestrated by the dog food industry, and I do agree that there is a link between diet and DCM. However, I do feel it is crucial not to attribute statements to the research that the researchers themselves haven't made. I appreciate and respect science, but I also recognize the importance of being cautious when translating research findings into real-life applications. Essentially, researchers have consistently found inconclusive results, but they agree that there is a diet-related outcome, with peas appearing to be the most connected factor (although not causative). This underscores the importance of conducting a meta-analysis or systematic review that encompasses all the current literature, as single studies with different research questions and criteria make it challenging to obtain a comprehensive understanding. It also makes it really hard for folks who have dogs that can’t have grains or specific foods, as the discussions around diet-related impacts on DCM can raise concerns and uncertainty among these dog owners.

 

[sevilodorf]

@catholicdave Nobody is making broad, sweeping statements. Vets, folks with DVM degrees, are widely recommending exercising caution. Simply not understanding the mechanism is NOT a reason not to make cautionary consumer choices.

https://www.alltradesdvm.com/topics/diet-associated-dcm/dcm-research-list

A full research list can be found here. It's super easy to nitpick sample sizes of individual studies, but surely as a student of science yourself, you understand the importance that a GROUP of small studies plays in understanding a health concern. A single study with a small sample size? That's not super compelling. A series of small to medium sample sizes and various study designs from retrospective studies of diagnosed animals to a biochemical analysis of the food itself all supporting the same conclusion? That's significant.

Most scientific papers caution against being used as absolute evidence of anything. It's when they stack upon each other that it becomes significant, and that's clearly the case here.

Nobody thinks this issue is resolved. But waiving it away with "correlation doesn't equal causation" is no longer appropriate at this point either, and it undermines the significant amount of science and veterinary consensus on the topic.

However, I do feel it is crucial not to attribute statements to the research that the researchers themselves haven't made.

Individual researchers producing individual studies and writing conclusions are not focusing on the body of research that has been conducted when they caution against taking their one study as conclusive of anything. And taking those statements that are applied to a single study and pretending they apply to the entire issue and body of research is disingenuous, that's not the purpose of those statements.

Many of the researchers VERY much recommend against these diets.For example: one prominent researcher Lisa Freeman:

https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2023...ause-is-not-yet-known-but-it-hasnt-gone-away/

It also makes it really hard for folks who have dogs that can’t have grains or specific foods, as the discussions around diet-related impacts on DCM can raise concerns and uncertainty among these dog owners.

True "grain issues" are vanishingly rare, and there are safe prescription options those dogs. The discussions should raise concerns that they take to their vet.

Furthermore, it is worth mentioning that one of the studies cited in your blog post received an expression of concern from the editor regarding the validity of its conclusion statement

However, a recent study from 2022 analyzed data

So to be clear, you're willing to be picky about sample size from studies that support the link between diet and DCM for whatever reason, but you're not going to apply the same critical lens to this problematic study? From BSM Partners who failed to list their clear conflict of interest in a previous study?

The "expression of concern" you're referencing was on one of the earliest papers on DCM -- and their conclusions have held up under at least a half dozen other studies.

If you're going to cast aspersions on a body of research and cite papers that contradict it, you better be willing to lend the same critical eye towards those contradictions.

 

[catholicdave]

@sevilodorf I completely understand why veterinarians recommend caution to their clients, and I have full trust in their dedication to the well-being of dogs. Let me clarify that I'm not disputing the existence of a relationship between grain-free dog food and DCM. I wholeheartedly agree that there is something in the diet that is causing this issue. In fact, my own vet advised a grain-inclusive diet, which I followed due to the benefits associated with whole grains in dog food. However, we recently had to switch because our preferred grain-inclusive option became unavailable.
I want to emphasize that I'm not trying to nitpick individual studies. What I find significant is that these studies, with their varying designs and "small to medium sample sizes," have conflicting findings among themselves. This calls for further exploration, such as meta-analyses that combine smaller studies to determine any overall effects. Even a systematic review would be helpful in consolidating these small studies into a more comprehensive document, allowing us to navigate through the conflicting results.
It's worth noting that even in the literature reviews of these studies, the authors acknowledge the lack of consensus on the cause. So, I am not taking statements of single studies, but rather considering the overall consensus derived from these studies, which aligns with the importance you mention. The conflicting evidence from these studies, along with the absence of meta-analyses or systematic reviews, adds to the uncertainty.

In light of this, it's important that we strike a balance between protective measures and acknowledging the current lack of concrete evidence. While it's of course sensible to take precautions suggested by your own vet, such as avoiding diets that are potentially linked to DCM, all I am saying is that we must also recognize that the issue is not yet fully understood. It's a delicate balance between taking responsible actions and acknowledging the ongoing research and evolving nature of the topic. Like I appreciate your emphasis on consulting with a veterinarian, which is crucial for personalized information relevant to someone’s dog. However, it's also important to consider the context of online discussions where messages can be misinterpreted easily. Online platforms may lack the nuances of face-to-face conversations, leading to misunderstandings. Therefore, we should approach online discussions with caution, ensuring that our intentions and concerns are communicated clearly to avoid misinterpretation and confusion, particularly when science is not as black and white as we would like it to be

 

[catholicdave]

@sevilodorf Also damn missed all the rest of the umm spiciness haha… Regarding the mention of sample sizes, it is important to acknowledge that the researchers themselves recognize the limitations of small sample sizes and the inclusion of only certain breeds in their studies. This acknowledgment is not about being overly critical but rather understanding the impact these limitations can have on the statistical power and generalizability of the research findings (which, again, the researchers state themselves)

While I was unaware of previous issues with research transparency… the paper I mentioned that the researchers did disclose their conflicts of interest and funding sources. This highlights the significance of considering potential biases that can arise from industry-funded research, which seems to be the predominant source of funding for most of the current literature on this topic. It is important to recognize that different companies may support research with different outcomes, leading to contrasting conclusions. However, I do not automatically assume that industry-funded research implies a grand conspiracy on either side.

To reiterate, I am not promoting a definitive stance but rather restating the points made by the researchers and veterinarians you mentioned. The consensus is that the evidence is not yet conclusive, and further research is needed to better understand the complexities of DCM and its relationship to diet. Thats all I was saying!!! I didn’t realize it would be such a hot take to state that there’s only a limited understanding of this topic and we should be cautious about how this science is talked about in a non-scientific forum !!

 

[danieldior]

@catholicdave Ask any Veterinary Cardiologist at this point. Earthborne at the time had different forms of peas listed 4 times. Those peas were reflected in the protein numbers. They actually market a food now that is pea and legume free. Nothing like making money on the death of my dog. Until you can test to tell if your dog will have a problem or not I would run the other way. Thousands have succumbed. Thank God that the word is out there and an echocardiogram can diagnose it before it is to late. Genetic DCM can't be cured br changing diet.