"Kicking the Dog: The endorsement of hegemonic masculinity predicts the endorsement of aversive training methods"

[hiccup]

@joshuawithmartin Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[childman]

@joshuawithmartin This is incredibly fascinating. Unfortunately, not super surprising, but fascinating nonetheless!

It's really interesting to see the parallels between "dog training" and our social structure/norms. I follow some creators on Instagram that have talked about this kind of stuff, and also discussed the relationship between things like capitalism and dog training methodologies (especially with the stage of capitalism we are currently in), which is incredibly interesting as well.

I agree - if I had a research mindset this would definitely be an area to explore.

 

[toinena]

@joshuawithmartin This is really interesting. I also find a lot of overlap in the dog training community and raising children community -- both good and bad. So much of R+ training/"gentle parenting"** is about setting your dog/kid up for success, respecting their boundaries and consent and I think that really bothers a lot of people. I don't make my kids hug and kiss anyone they don't want to and I sure as heck don't make my dog meet people or other dogs if he doesn't want to.

** FWIW I have actually grown to really dislike the term "gentle parenting" because it sounds like parents who never tell their children "no." It's more accurately described as respectful or authoritative parenting, where children are treated respectfully and kindly but also with firm boundaries in place. I tell my kids no all the time!

 

[bushido8000]

@joshuawithmartin Oh fascinating. I love a good scientific analysis/assessment. Thanks so much for posting, I am looking forward to watching the video and checking out the colloquium page.

As a side note, I often find myself - for right or for wrong - thinking "oh, that must be a man" when I read comments on this sub that tie into and and are firm in their support of dominance theory and/or aversive training methods. The anonymity of Reddit in most instances leaves gender a mystery, but it appears that I too am at least in part a part of the trend Dr. Palmer has found.

 

[joshuawithmartin]

@bushido8000 I know what you mean, I think the same sometimes. And then oftentimes clicking through on the commenters history is very telling and often confirms it well enough.

 

[stevekolt]

@joshuawithmartin I’ve been writing on studies who demonstrate that, on average, men care less about animal welfare than women, this is interesting and related.

 

[brunobc]

@joshuawithmartin This sounds absolutely fascinating—starting it now. Thanks for sharing!!

 

[vicktoryu12]

@joshuawithmartin Yeah, that tracks.

 

[redpill21]

@joshuawithmartin This is a fascinating study. I always had this underlying feeling when dealing with trainers that endorsed the cesar milan way of "alpha" and "pack leader" and "confident energy" but I couldn't really put my finger on what the underlying factor between all these trainers were. Turns out, they were all men that tied their identity to being macho men.

I recently attended a dog walking clinic with a rescue where the owner is a self-proclaimed trainer, and he kept using buzzwords/phrases like "humble warrior" and "I like science" or "dogs are wolves/beasts." It doesn't mean they didn't love their dogs, but they made it very clear that dogs were not to be raised like children. You can be sweet to children, but you need to treat all dogs as beasts that need to a strong leader, not a nurturing mother. Nothing in that clinic sat right with me, but it's pretty clear the volunteers in the rescue do love their dogs and I don't think the trainer means to be abusive to his dogs in any way. I just think they have a lot of internalized toxic masculinity.

This isn't my only encounter with this type of attitude so I'm glad there are more research-based evidence I can use to support my protests against that type of training.

edit: changed "due" to "do"

 

[cathya]

@joshuawithmartin I always find it hard to find male YouTube trainers to suggest to male clients. I think it’s important for them to see that masculinity isn’t defined by an adversarial approach. It’s also about being fearless, protective of your dog and gentle.

Women are super capable trainers but there is evidence to show that men take other men more seriously. I feel they are also more likely to write off a female trainer’s approach as “weak” “babying” “a bleeding heart”.

 

[tenderloin]

@cathya Michael Shikashio, Ken Ramirez, and Chirag Patel are all amazing +R trainers...I'm sure there are others but I totally hear you that they're harder to pick out from other male YT trainers.

 

[cathya]

@tenderloin I really liked John McGuigan but he got “me-tooed” and I am just so disappointed in him.

 

[christina1979]

@cathya He got me-tooed? What do you mean?

Edit: nvm, looked it up, well what I could find without a Facebook account. Surprised to say the least.

 

[monk58]

@cathya Try teaching an outdoor sport to a man as young female.. as any aged female indeed..

Try teaching it to teenage boys

Ugh is all I can say. Your word as a female is always worth less and questioned more even though you are the expert and often the male has no clue

Drives me mad. It is just not changing in attitude.. if anything the internet is sending many boys backwards

It does not surprise me at all that aversives are linked with this kind of world view. I have often thought watching certain male youtube trainers that this isn't actually about the dog.. the way you are explaining your approach it is more about you the MAN

Dog is just there as a prop for you!

Something about how they are doing things is supposed to be a reflection on them

I got irritated once by a very famous one ranting on about r plus trainers being all childless woman

Peed me off at so many levels in so many ways!

Will listen to this with interest!

 

[godicon22]

@cathya I recently found Modern Malinois. He shows the results of his training more than teaches it, but seeing examples of guard dogs trained with positive reinforcement and no adversive tools might be more compelling to men.

There definitely seems to be some prejudice against women trainers. There are so many influential women trainers that aren’t really heard of among the general population of dog owners.

 

[johnojuan]

@cathya Andre Yeu is well worth checking out

 

[aspiegrace]

@joshuawithmartin * Shocked Pikachu Face *

This is super interesting work though, thanks for sharing!

 

[jonahmayhew]

@aspiegrace Shocked Pikachu Face This is

Super interesting work

Though, thanks for sharing!

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[heavenstudent]

@joshuawithmartin In my experience training dogs and horses, they do need you to be a leader. But a good leader doesn't punish or instill fear. A good leader gains respect by setting clear expectations, rewarding good behaviors and redirecting unwanted behaviors. If your animal respects you and is not afraid of you, they will do anything to please you knowing you'd never ask something of them they were incapable of doing.

 

[msgltl4e]

@joshuawithmartin Really glad effort was put into making that title short and reasonable versus unweidly and full of too many technical terms