"Kicking the Dog: The endorsement of hegemonic masculinity predicts the endorsement of aversive training methods"

[joshuawithmartin]

"In this talk, Dr. Palmer discusses the relationship between attitudes toward animals, adherence to dog-training methods, and gender ideologies. Dr. Palmer discusses how the endorsement of male role norms predict the willingness to use aversive training methods, empathy towards companion animals, and beliefs in human supremacy."

The other day I found out about this presentation from a friend but wasn't able to watch the live webinar, but thought it was a super interesting topic. As someone whose been in online dog spaces, worked with the public IRL regarding their dogs in a variety of contexts, and who has a strong interest in animal behavior, the demographics of who is drawn towards what methods and why has crossed my mind often. I've often thought about how if I went back to grad school that this would be one area of study I'd like to delve into, and this sounds like an interesting look into that! They've posted the video now and I really wanted to share it with you guys as I'm sure there are others that have thought about the same topic. I have not watched this yet but plan on it this evening (its about an hour long). Here is some more information on Dr. Palmer, and the abstract for her research paper.

"Presenting at this colloquium will be Dr. Lindsay Palmer who will discuss the relationship between attitudes toward animals, adherence to dog-training methods, and gender ideologies. Dr. Palmer will discuss how the endorsement of male role norms predict the willingness to use aversive training methods, empathy towards companion animals, and beliefs in human supremacy. Dr. Palmer will also seek feedback from the audience during the Q&A portion of the event as to the future directions of their work.

Lindsay Palmer, PhD is a post-doctoral scholar in the Department of Population and Quantitative Health Sciences at UMass-Chan Medical School. She received her PhD in Psychology and Women’s, Gender, and Sexuality Studies from Penn State. Her research program leverages a feminist perspective in the study of social issues, the human-animal bond, health disparities, and behavioral interventions.

Abstract:

In his popular show “The Dog Whisperer”, Cesar Milan shares with thousands of viewers dog training strategies that rely on dominance theory or the idea that humans must assert themselves as “alphas” or a “pack leader” when training their dogs (Wlodarczyk, 2017). Dominance theory is a lay theory—one that primarily exists in popular culture with a little-to-no scientific basis. That is, dominance theory as it exists in popular culture significantly diverges from nuanced scientific discourse in animal behavior. Indeed, many scientists and animal behaviorists suspect that the pervasiveness of the dominance-based ideology may have downstream consequences that jeopardize the welfare of dogs (Eaton, 2011; Todd, 2018). As noted by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB, 2009), one possibility is that dominance theory could motivate owners to use more forceful and aversive training methods. Recent research work finds that men are less likely to use positive reinforcement training methods than women (Johnson & Wynne, 2022). In the current work, we examine the relationship between Dominance Theory, masculinity, and aversive training. Specifically, we investigated the endorsement of male role norms (e.g., “Men should always be the boss”, “Boys should prefer to play with trucks rather than dolls”), beliefs in Dominance Theory, attitudes towards training methods, beliefs in human supremacy over animals, and empathy towards companion animals. Based on an a-priori power analysis, we collected (N= 312, 65% women) undergraduate subject pool participants to complete an online survey. Using linear regression, we found that regardless of gender, endorsement of male role norms predicted the willingness to use aversive training methods, greater beliefs in Dominance Theory, less willingness to use training science-based training methods, lower empathy towards companion animals, and beliefs in human supremacy over animals (all p-values

 

[tenderloin]

@joshuawithmartin Oh man so many thoughts, but the main thing I kept thinking about was how primarily men (but others as well) have been trained and socialized in this type of masculinity from birth, and how that socialization trickles down into attitudes toward training (and ultimately we all suffer for it). I don't really know how to overcome that, especially with the point in the Q&A about how education alone doesn't tend to sway opinion. BLEAK but fascinating.

 

[wdouglas1611]

@joshuawithmartin I look forward to ingesting this better throughout the day, thank you.

My husband defers to me on the dog training matters, but he has asked me questions that are along the lines of "shouldn't we [insert dominance theory idea here]?" and while they're easily diffused, he still has them in his head.

And, my husband is the very model of logic and reason, so he's open to my counters, but those ideas are still all right there, under the surface.

But, neither of us regret going fully r+ with our reactive/aggressive dog. She's really just afraid of everything, no matter how it expresses when she sees a trigger. Seeing her confidence and demeanor improve over the past 2 years is so much more monumental than getting an exact desired behavior as quick as possible, i'm never quite sure how to express it. She's a different dog.

My dog's feelings may be entirely attached to her level of chicken scrap intake, but she does have them!

 

[joshuawithmartin]

@wdouglas1611 Isn’t that interesting? I find this to be true also in many people, oftentimes this stuff is so ingrained that it really is right there right under the surface, even though by all accounts the alternative methods make more sense to them and they make the effort.

 

[wdouglas1611]

@joshuawithmartin I used to fall for a lot of Caesar Milan crap myself, but that was eons ago, now. It turns out, I just happened to adopt a really nice, year and a half old black lab who came home pretty balanced and ready to please. All his worst habits (he really liked to run off and harass other dogs in yards briefly, like a morning run, that’s all), I can look back on and I know what I was doing wrong as a handler. But, he was a nice dog who loved other dogs and came home. We were simply lucky nothing happened. (Different husband).

I had a roommate who had a perfect angel of a pit/boxer, and I mean that. I just learned this past week that she finally passed at 16y 4mo. This was a dog that existed on love, kindness, and gentleness for all her life. And, we were all very lucky to know her.

But, my dog now? She got the shortest end of every stick she ever pulled other than everyone insisting on keeping her around as a mascot. She was at her shelter for 5 years (since she was born) and adopted/returned at least once.

My bar was low. She was willing to sit without much drama and look up at me, in the eye, once she was unsure what to do (after a good relief walk). She’s a delightful, sweet, charismatic house dog. She is not a great neighbor to dogs and people. But, we all do just fine. I had all this fluffy crap in my head about how I could turn a dog around, but now I really get it. It’s like, I went into it getting a dog in a way that was all about me - which is fine, and I think that’s what a lot of us do. But, it’s so much clearer how you have to also be prepared to be ready to make it about the dog if not all their traits match up.

We wanted to give a dog a home who needed one and that’s what we did. Fortunately, she’s not an internal threat. These days she’s not much of an external threat either. For all her bravado - she really can do harm - she’s not exactly driven to run or sprint or exert any real, um, effort to get at anyone or anything. There was a time where I thought she posed a mortal threat, but she really loves being close to her kitchen and I can outrun her with almost no effort and no bra. I’ll put it that way.

 

[joshuawithmartin]

@wdouglas1611 I used to watch a lot of Cesar too! I think a lot of us here probably did, and then we ended up with a dog that forced us to dive a bit deeper and then we realized how damaging it could be.

In retrospect I'm so glad that I had to dive deeper and learn all these things beyond his show and grow and learn, but now I can't unsee all the things we as a society do in the name of behavior change and training, not just for dogs, but for people, kids, etc.

 

[huey507]

@wdouglas1611 My dog is an internal threat, and I’ve found a lot of Cesar’s advice to be helpful in keeping myself safe inside my house. I think different methods work for different situations. Until you have a dog who is an internal threat to your safety and security inside your own house, maybe be a little more forgiving/less judgmental about people for the methods they choose to use with their dog.

 

[booboo222]

@huey507 Aversive handling methods are proven (through multiple studies) to increase bite risk, erode handler trust, and decrease quality of life markers.

The idea that you would use fear, intimidation, and aggression towards an animal you consider to be "a threat to your safety and security" is deeply concerning.

 

[huey507]

@booboo222 Like I said before, unless you’ve lived with an animal who is a threat to your safety inside your own house, your judgement is not necessary. We don’t use fear and intimidation because obviously that’s not helpful, but we can’t use only R+ because a rule-free house also has resulted in people getting hurt. Aside from using a muzzle and head harness (and getting judged for using these “cruel” tools), we don’t use intimidating and aggressive measures with this dog — we just have to extremely manage our house and the people in it have to follow a long list of rules in order for no one to get hurt. The dog is a 120 lbs asshole even when people are being nice to him and his bites are extremely hurtful. Do you know what it’s like to live with a dog who you can’t touch, can’t snuggle with, can’t even be at the same eye level as? Do you know what it’s like to have been attacked by your own dog inside your own house? Do you know what it’s like to have been traumatized by your own dog so badly that you’ve had to start going to therapy for the first time in your life?? Do you know what it’s like to feel so unsafe and uncomfortable inside your own house that you wish you could go to sleep and not wake up?! You want to talk about eroding trust and decrease in quality of life?!?! Get out of here with your judgement. Amazing how everyone cares more about a dog’s life over a human’s life.

 

[aspiegrace]

@huey507 You seem to be talking past each other. The commenter inferred that you were referring to Millan's aversive training methods, not merely management tactics. And your assumption that R+ means rule-free and anti-muzzle is an odd one.

 

[huey507]

@aspiegrace Maybe not so much with the muzzle (only out in public do people negatively judge a muzzled dog), but I’ve definitely been given shit about using a head harness. And I’ve also received negative judgement in some R+ communities about using some of Milan’s “correction” training methods. I really meant to say R+ entails “non-correction” (which to me seems the same as no rules) — we gave it a decent run in our house but our boy ended up displaying even more dominant behaviors and people were getting hurt too often. But yea, you’re right, I did mix things up and talk about management, because that’s where we are at with this dog. We’ve spent thousands of dollars on multiple trainers and behaviorists, one of which recommended BE because he’s just too unpredictable and he’s too big to be so aggressive to people. So we have pretty much given up on any training and are solely just trying to manage everyone in our household coexisting as safely as possible. But there was a time when we were deep into trying to train and work thru the dog’s problems, and that’s when I was receiving loads of negative judgement about how we were trying to handle our dog.

 

[booboo222]

@huey507 The judgemental tone of your comment put me very offside, and I apologise for being callous in my reply. I can see you are under an immense amount of strain.

I work in rescue/rehab, community safety above the “save a life at all costs” method is how I (and my org) operate. You cannot rescue dogs without first and foremost caring for the physical and psychological well-being of the humans. Sometimes that means making a really fucking tough decision.

Personally, behavioural euthanasia is not just the kindest option for dogs who pose high risk of harm, but it’s also necessary. Advocating for things like corrections and other methods, which in the long term increase the risk, puts not just you, but the wider community in a potentially dangerous situation (and makes life pretty miserable for a dog).

I’m sorry you are in this position.

 

[lindakrivera36]

@huey507 Unfortunately none of the critic can handle a red zone case like Caesar do. The recommendation when it gets to that point is always BE

 

[wdouglas1611]

@lindakrivera36 Caesar had to cover up one of his own dogs murdering queen latifah’s dog, and he’s been sued a lot by people who have been attacked by his dogs.

His show is just a show, for show. Period. His methods didn’t even work on his own favorite dog. It’s pure Hollywood.

Junior should have been staying home, instead, Milan kept putting other dogs and people in harm’s way. And he got to keep making irresponsible TV in spite of it.

 

[lindakrivera36]

@wdouglas1611 Caesar clearly is self taught and has put himself out there publicly for many decades. And you can noticeably see him change and improve on his technique throughout the years. Caesar today and Caesar 10 years ago is very different and you can see him actively incorporating new technique which includes a lot of R+ work than say Caesar 10 years ago which is 100% dominance theory. In another word Caesar is becoming a balance trainer

Caesar does majority of his work with red zone case. And yes that’s what it mean. He works with DANGEROUS dogs. This is the part nobody here understand. How dangerous the dog’s Caesar work with. Yes working with dangerous dog sometimes shit happens. He take on liability that no R+ trainer will ever do. And when things go wrong. It’s the R+ trainer that has NEVER work with a red zone dog out on the internet smashing the keyboard criticizing

Yes Show intended for a show. This is not Caesar specific. There are also a lot of fluff in the R+ world that uses Hollywood magic to their advantage.

Zac George, Victoria Stewart. Just a few of the top of my head. Yea abusing camera trickery is not just limited to Caesar.

Caesar is definitely not perfect but he has save a lot more dogs than any of his critics has. If you are trying to criticize. Please go and save couple thousands of red zone dogs first than come back to preach

 

[huey507]

@lindakrivera36 Of course, as is the advice I’ve been given multiple times about this dog. But I’m not the sole decision maker of my house, and other members of the household think BE is “cruel”. So high management has been the “solution”, and hopefully I won’t unalive myself before this dog dies because my mental health is suffering severely because of a POS dog. But whatever, DoGs ArE sO gReAT!

 

[wdouglas1611]

@huey507 It's like I told them:

Caesar had to cover up one of his own dogs murdering queen latifah’s dog, and he’s been sued a lot by people who have been attacked by his dogs.

His show is just a show, for show. Period. His methods didn’t even work on his own favorite dog. It’s pure Hollywood.

Junior should have been staying home, instead, Milan kept putting other dogs and people in harm’s way. And he got to keep making irresponsible TV in spite of it.

Caesar Milan is completely full of shit, and sometimes BE is the most humane thing you can do for a dog. I'm sorry you have a spouse that disagrees with that, but it's still a household issue, not a reason to lash out at strangers on the internet.

I hope you and your partner can learn more and come to the same arrangement on BE. Sometimes that truly is the solution.

Personally, when I realized my dog had serious issues, I ran the gamut of options - including BE. The reason we kept her is she is not an internal threat. If she had been, the outcome would have probably been a lot different.

Sometimes, and this really depends a lot on your individual situation, the dog has neurological issues that cannot be trained away.

In my dog's case, she missed that critical period as a puppy where she could have learned dogs could be friends. That period is long gone, so we'll be a 1 dog house. At home, she's very lazy and into treats. She's never raised a tooth to us, she stops playing if she accidentally hits the wrong thing when going for a toy.

Not every dog is destined to be a good house dog, and Caesar Milan isn't willing to tell people that, and it is dangerous.

 

[lindakrivera36]

@wdouglas1611 We all have our own bias. Especially when you see result stemming from your own bias.

I also have a very timid dog that was scare of everything as a puppy and when grown can theoretically destroy anything in its path.

My girlfriend defer all training to me. She simply can’t handle the dog. Doggo will only goto her for play and treat but won’t listen when it counts.

Always been a balance trainer myself. Raise our timid pup with lots of positive reinforcement and minimal correction.

My timid pup is now a confident adult dogs that I can trust around everyone and every dog.

Correction is suppose to break a dog’s spirit but it is never the case for me. If you manage to break a dog’s spirit you are doing it wrong.

But these result doesn’t matter apparently because my bias is not the mainstream bias

 

[joshuawithmartin]

@lindakrivera36 It's easy for it to seem like your bias is not the mainstream bias in online communities, but in practice in the world by most people, training with corrections is by far and away the most common! So you are far from alone on that front, and in fact are in good company with the majority.

I (and many others here) tend to believe that efficacy is not the only factor at play especially when it comes to working with dogs with behavioral difficulties and sensitivities. But most in the world at large don't think about it similarly (and unless they have a difficult dog, they probably don't spend much time thinking about it at all) and feel that corrections and punishment have a place in learning. Punishment is extremely reinforcing to the punisher and that is a hard habit to kick, especially if you don't feel a need to kick it.

 

[joshuawithmartin]

Here is a link to the colloquium page where there are a number of other presentations on other webinars posted that folks might find interesting also.