Just wanted to give a recommendation for a really good R+ Youtuber

clesportsfan

New member
Hello,

Very long time lurker, I've been reading this sub for 4+ years because of my reactive dog. I've been through training, but still like to seek out as much outside material as I can. There is very little I've found on Youtube that promotes R+ and is helpful (I do watch Zak George, but find that his training videos with reactive dogs aren't specific enough and his marking is too inconsistent/not well explained). Today though I discovered DGP Dog Behavior Videos and I can't recommend them enough! Several videos on working with reactive dogs and he goes through every step in the process. He's getting less than 100 views per video, but it's such good content! I thought I'd recommend him to ya'll, because I'm finding it very helpful.
 
@clesportsfan Thank you! I'll subscribe it too!

If you want some more positive reinforcement trainers I recommend Dog Training by Kikopup. She teaches not only cool dog tricks but also shares knowledge how to deal with reactive dogs with positive methods. Her videos inspired me to become a dog trainer myself.
 
@7times70 My problem with Kiko pup is that her videos are always her in a very controlled environment with her dogs. She never takes her dog on a busy street to show how her methods work in a real situation. She has done a great job training her dogs in their world, but I wonder…if she was brought a real problem dog how would her methods works. I will check out the OPs recommendation too, because honestly, I have been struggling to find an R+ trainer that gets results with reactive dogs in real life situations. Zak George at least tries, just doesn’t get results and puts dogs in situations they aren’t ready for a lot.
 
@pastorjustin One of her Emily's dogs, Wish, is a service dog washout due to reactivity. Wish gave me a lot of hope because she had ideal breeding and raising, developed anxiety during adolescence like my dog, and was able to go on to live a cautiously normal and healthy life. She never shows her dogs over threshold because she avoids putting them over threshold well and never would do it on purpose for videos. It doesn't get the views but it's way more ethical. Epic was adopted because of behavior issues as well. Both have spent a lot of time in public. Bliss's video with sneak-petting service dog scenarios was controlled but not unrealistic except that Emily could stop or pause the incidents if he started to get stressed.

Any dog trainer that gives video proof of the dog's reactivity before or during treatment is harming the dog for the audience. It's a real ethical conflict with viewers who want "real reactive dog" demonstrations like this. I understand why viewers want video proof, but any trainer who provides it loses some of my respect. We know not avoiding reactions are bad for the dog.

As far as real life situations goes, that's not clearly defined. A reactive dog should not be in super chaotic situations. If you end up in a truly uncontrolled situation where a reactive/any dog would be stressed, you really need to focus 100% on your dog and getting out of the stressful environment. That means stop filming. Even if you are wearing a GoPro if you don't keep a tiny bit of your attention on filming you don't get useful footage.

The book The Education of Will (McConnell) is a great case study of a real world dog with reactivity issues and a positive trainer. It's a subject better suited to a recounted format instead of a filmed one. The Enlightened By Dogs podcast (Kawalec) talks about a newer approach than +R but still science based. It uses a lot more of the neurobiology and developmental science that we are accumulating post-BF Skinner and I believe that's the future of dog training. She claims to be against +R but I see it more as being against poorly done (too often/too close to threshold) counterconditioning, and against the transactional nature of operant conditioning. She has a point although I am not letting my OC go completely quite yet. I am enjoying her online course.
 
@kittyc R+ training is definitely compatible with neurobiology and developmental science though? It’s the basis of any science based training.
 
@mheppell Here's an example of when they are in conflict: A human toddler is having a tantrum in public. If you as the parent take an operant conditioning approach, you don't pay attention to the toddler until they have calmed down and can use their words again, and then you pay them lots of attention or provide another reward for calming down. We are now finding this ends up with an adult child that struggles with emotional regulation because their need for acceptance in the family was dependent on their suppression of their negative emotions, and did not get a regular opportunity to use their mirror neurons to help upregulate the parasympathetic nervous system which, compared to the sympathetic, is far less developed at birth and needs coregulation to learn how to work. The inner belief of the child is that acceptance is continent on their behavior, when children thrive better when unconditional love is a foundation of their upbringing instead. [The "cry it out" method of sleep training infants was based on Skinnerian behavior science but has been proven to harm children long term.] The new attachment theory approach based on our newer discoveries in neurobiology would instead have you provide calm soothing attention to your toddler who is experiencing an emotional overwhelm, the sympathetic nervous system has gone into overdrive, and they are having a developmentally appropriate response to what their bodies are doing. Instead of motivating the child to change the behavior, you provide support via your own nervous system, validate the emotions being experienced if you can, and allow the experience of recovery without applying pressure to strengthen the neural pathways of emotional regulation, in addition to ensuring physical safety while the child's forebrain is out of service and they cannot remember not to do things like lie down in the path of a car or whatever.

All social mammals have the same kind of neurological development, and we know that a transactional relationship approach is dysfunctional and requires therapy to overcome for humans. Kawalec, if I am understanding it correctly, encourages gifts and appreciation treats, and even treats for tricks are fine, but for lifestyle behaviors she prefers to use a more autonomous and less authoritarian partnership approach that lets each individual contribute more for the joy of working together by strengthening the bond and communication.

It's not that +R is wrong in any way, it just might not be the most useful way to have emotionally healthy families, and since dogs are generally family and are designed for family social settings, using coregulation instead of conditioning seems like it's the next big thing to me at least.

As a human with emotional regulation problems and a lack of developmental coregulation I find a lot of parallels between cPTSD and dogs who show fear reactivity, and when I can translate the somatic techniques that have been so useful to my own healing into dogs I tend to see really good responses. Personally I love OC and believe it has a place in our communication with our dogs, but I also want to encourage canine autonomy and mental health through decreasing the transactional nature of the OC mindset to behavior management. And my efforts in that direction do seem to be paying off with my own dogs.

ETA: A reference on "cry it out" science in response to a very recent study in support and including older science in opposition that I believe sums up the current outlook pretty well.
 
I have heard this argument before, and it makes sense on the surface. But there is not a single video of a dog trained with positive only I can find heeling on a busy street or simply in a real world environment. That seems odd to me. I get you don’t want to show the over-threshold, but where are the finish products even?
 
@pastorjustin

I'm sure there are many examples, but Shade Whitesel is probably one of the best if you want to see some impressive heeling. Or are you looking specifically at real world reactivity results?

I’ve morphed into using primarily positive reinforcement these days, and do not find it necessary to use any pressure or correction based tools to achieve life manners, behavior modification or sport (AKC or Schutzhund) behaviors.
 
@aspiegrace Well I think everyone uses primarily positive reinforcement to train dogs. At least good trainers and not these old school people who are violent with dogs. But the question is when there are competing motivators and the dog is non-compliant, what are your options. For dog sports other than agility, the top dogs in the world are almost always trained with pressure from what I have read. Here is a video I have found as an example of what I am looking for. I want to see this level of control done with positive only training.

 
@pastorjustin So the singular case "before and after" works really well as a marketing tool for aversive trainers (hello TikTok Tom). The formula usually goes: goad the dog into a series of super flashy reactions (bonus points for doing some real dramatic slow mo content), choke them into submission/flood them/generally intimidate and terrify the dog into learned helplessness, bing bang boom "Results" TM.

You'll notice most ethical positive reinforcement trainers are presenting methods not singular case situations, and will demonstrate technique in controlled environments with dogs they either own or those they work with who are predictable. This subset is generally less interested in convincing you it works (because, literally anything related to behavioural science can do that) and more just teaching you how to implement if you don't yet have the ability to be working with a qualified professional.

You're talking about two sides of the coin - people who want you to Buy Their Shit and people who are doing education and advocacy. The latter don't really gain anything by showing you a video of their dog performing a heel when walking down the street...
 
@booboo222 I'm trying to follow along with your thought process here but I'm not keeping up. You give one example as showing the finished product of the desired results (that you clearly disagree with) and the other example is not showing any desired results but only showing "methods"?

To my understanding, the question that prompted your response was to show a positive only trainer who produced desired results. Can you explain your response some more?
 
@imagebeastmarkbeast I'm responding to a whole train of conversation about content in general, but I don't really know how else to explain "presentation of training one dog" (content warning, this link contains highly aversive techniques via Upstate Canine Academy) vs. "technical presentation of a method" are two different things, the former is generally the content aversive trainers present, the latter tends to be the approach of the R+ community.

The above poster wants an ethical positive reinforcement trainer (R+) to make a video:

Training an actual reactive dog, and that dog for example then heeling down a busy street, as "proof" what they are doing works, e.g. "this is Fido, he barks and lunges at every dog he sees, here is Fido learning the 1,2,3 pattern game. Now here's Fido walking down a busy street with lots of other dogs, all fixed!"

But the content that is more likely to be produced by an ethical positive reinforcement trainer (R+) is:

Using their dog or a training aid dog already proofed in the behaviour, then demonstrating how to implement the method, e.g. "the 1,2,3 pattern game can be very useful for the following problems (leash reactivity, environmental arousal, foundation heeling behaviours), here is how to do the 1,2,3 pattern game"

Hope that helps :)
 

Similar threads

Back
Top