Just got a 9 week old Bordoodle (Border Collie x Poodle)

[wendysue1959]

Hey guys, so 4 days ago my wife and I got our 9 week old Bordoodle. We did a lot of research prior to getting the puppy, but as anticipated things are different than the youtube videos you see. I'm not expecting my puppy to sit on his first training session or anything, although I have seen it be done, but I am struggling to train him because he isn't motivated by food. Sometimes he doesn't finish his meal and sometimes he does; If I hold out kibble in front of him he goes for it, but since I don't reward him for not doing the task, he will just stop paying attention. I think we got him potty trained alright, but god damn he does not like his crate. I read online you should never force your puppy into the crate, but that is literally impossible with my puppy. He doesn't really care for treats and even if I throw a toy in the crate he keeps 1-2 legs outside the crate at all times. If I do get him in there he will rush out while I try to close it and then he figures out I want him in the crate so he lays down on the carpet.
Also, I am worried I won't be able to socialize him well enough. I live in Canada and it is snowing like crazy and will soon be -20 to -30 weather and I don't think that is even safe for my puppy plus I need to have him have all his shots for Parvo before I can take him out. For now he runs around in my backyard, but that isn't enough. I feel like by the time his shots are done I will have wasted valuable and unrecoverable time for the puppy's growth. Honestly wanna just go to Canadian Tire and ask random people to touch my dog, but not sure if that is safe for the Parvo thing.
He also has some separation anxiety which is common with Border Collies though. My wife is currently always home so he is never alone, but I am also worried that will be detrimental later in life when we need to leave him alone in the house.
But yeah this is not one of those "considering rehoming" posts. We love our dog and he has many pros that outweigh these cons. I don't really even see these as cons, just want advice to appropriately raise him. Even the crate thing at night, we did "force" him in? But he went from freaking out to stopping after 5 min, 2 min, 30 seconds respectfully 3 nights straight. Also went from waking me up 3 times to 1 to 0 to go potty, so I actually think that is really progressive. He seems like a smart dog, and he wants to run around outside for as long as possible, but lazy when it comes to training. Anyways thanks.

Also, I wanted to get a bed for my puppy for when he naps outside the crate. Would it be fine to get one for his projected adult size? Also wondering if that would harm his crate training, because if he likes that bed (one that can't fit in his crate) then his crate might seem less appealing to him.

 

[michelle1]

@wendysue1959 First things first: take a deep breath and slow down. You are only 4 days in to what will be many happy years with this dog. Give both yourself and the puppy a break and some empathy. Read this article at least three times. Puppies are hard work and while the internet is full of advice about what absolutely MUST be done in the first 24 hours, first 72 hours, first week, etc - most of it is bunk. As long as the puppy is safe, fed, and watered, you're doing great.

To address some of the specific questions in your post:

Your puppy is still very young and still adjusting to being in a completely new situation (a baby kidnapped from another planet!) It's very very normal for him to not be very food motivated right now, especially when you are in a new situation (like the vet) or if you are trying to use kibble to train. If you really need something very high value try some boiled chicken or liver.

He's also going to have a very short attention span for a while; again, he's a baby and this is completely normal. It'll get better. In the meantime, if you only train for 60 seconds at a time - that's absolutely fine.

If he's ok with sleeping in his crate, then you're doing great and are ahead of the game. Keep rewarding him for going inside; this is where the high value treats can come in very handy. No matter what Zak George shows in his videos, you cannot crate train a puppy in a day (or even a week.)

(Also, a note on potty training: it's nice that he's doing well but it's physically impossible for a 9 week old puppy to be potty trained, they simply don't develop full bladder control until they are closer to 6 months. There will be accidents; don't get discouraged, just keep doing what you're doing and it'll work out.)

Socialization as it's used in dog rearing does not mean interacting with other people or dogs; it means being exposed to a lot of new situations and experiences. Taking him to Canadian Tire and other pet-friendly stores is a great idea but I would not necessarily invite strangers to touch him. Just let him soak in the world around him. You can also take him in the car, use the vacuum cleaner in his presence... expose him to the kinds of experiences you want to be 'neutral' for him in the future. He also cannot get parvo from people, so that's not a concern; you just need to keep him away from areas where unvaccinated dogs might have been using the bathroom.

The article above covers it, but 9 week old dogs don't have "separation anxiety" - biology tells them that it's extremely dangerous for them to be by themselves, so they cry to get you to come back and keep them safe. When my dog was a pup she couldn't stand to even be on the other side of a playpen; now, at just over a year she's totally fine. Crate training will help with preventing separation anxiety in the future; for now, the best thing you can do is make sure they know you're there to keep them safe.

You can get him a big bed without affecting his crate training, don't worry about that. However, you might want to wait until he's older before buying a pricey one - many things will get chewed between now and adulthood.

The last thing I'd say is that both border collies and poodles are incredibly intelligent dogs that need to work. It's very likely that you're going to end up with a dog that needs a ton of stimulation, both physical and mental, in order to be happy and non-destructive in your home. I would highly recommend looking into some kind of dog sport - obedience, agility, flyball, etc - that you can train in as he gets a little older. It's a ton of fun and will give him a place to direct all the energy he's going to have as he grows up.

 

[wendysue1959]

@michelle1 Lol I'm not panicking by the way. Just wanted some input from others. With the Canadian tire thing, is it alright to walk him in there? Parvo is feces and saliva so other dogs would have went around licking things right? And if I get a big bed early that isn't chewable, it should be fine right?

 

[michelle1]

@wendysue1959 Just carry him in the store, or put a blanket in a cart and let him sit there. If you don't let him touch the ground it's totally fine.

And yes - but you'd be surprised what "unchewable" things puppies have figured out to chew.

 

[nyokabi]

@wendysue1959 Fellow doodle owner also in Canada (Ontario). Ours is a Poodle crossed with Bernese Mountain and Cocker with some English Sheepdog (thanks to Embark we got this information). We also considered a Bordoodle.

First of all, you have a very, very smart working dog. This will be both a blessing and a curse. You are right, they are pretty lazy when it comes to working for food and they really don't care much about praise or play lol They are like 'what's in it for me? I don't really care about this liver treat'. Honestly, our puppy continually tries to outsmart us. It's maddening but also something you can't help but marvel at. And there are times he really is just smarter or steps ahead of where we are. First time puppy owners and all that. You will eventually laugh at being outsmarted by a dog. I can commiserate with watching all the YouTubes, reading all the books and then finding out that none of that works with your puppy lol It's a challenge. Getting an actual live trainer was the most helpful for us. Have them come into your home and watch your interactions. They can also give advice on how to set up your home.

The crate while a good option isn't the only one. We had to move from a crate to a pen attached to crate at around 4 mths. We found in the beginning, while we were crate training, he slept well in a pen. Then we were able to get him crate trained at night but less so in the day. Then we got enforced naps going in the crate until he went for a day of daycare and they crated them there. That broke the crate for us and he was never happy to go back in with the door closed. He now to this day still sleeps in his pen with crate attached and more often than not I see him curled up in his crate when I wake up in the morning lol The door stays open and he's fine about it. Luckily, none of that derailed our potty training. Look up Susan Garrett crate games and start to hit that pretty hard if you really want crate success.

Poodles are notorious for being picky eaters and not overly food motivated. They always want the next best thing and will often pooh-pooh food that they normally eat. You should continue to mix and match treats and find something that works on any given day..it won't always work but if you mix it up and keep him guessing, he will be more likely to take the treat or food. We never had any luck using kibble to train, and it is definitely not high enough value outside. He simply does not love it enough to work for it (all the kibbles we have tried...4 Strong Paws, Orijen Tundra, Royal Canin gastro for when he went through Giardia, Purina Pro Plan multiple flavours, Now Fresh and we just landed on dehydrated raw made by Grand Cru. It's the only one we have been able to give for training that he doesn't spit out about 10% of the time!) So we use things like dried sardines and other single ingredient treats. His preference right now is freeze dried venison and goat but even then, if he's really distracted it doesn't even work. You will spend a lot of time in the treat aisles trying different things for the most part.

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with a bed just yet. Our puppy is 11 mths in 3 days and rarely ever lies down on an actual bed (oh and we have 4 of them lol). These puppies run hot. So they love the cool floor and moving around on the floor to find cooler spots. They also kind of like to Velcro and just be where you are so expect them at some point to just be at your feet. You also don't know if they are going to eat the bed. So never leave unattended with a bed. They can be chewers. Even the toughest beds can often be destroyed.

At around 4 to 5 mths, get a long leash for when you can put him on the ground. We got a 15 ft and then 20 ft leash to take him on long line walks and so he could run around. They really love this. Go to as many greenspaces as you can and let him run and sniff and do his puppy business. You can bring a ball or Frisbee for some beginning fetch training. This is super enriching for them. At home, working on basic skills but also trick training can fill in some of the gaps. Honestly puppies need a ton of sleep (18 hrs!) and so if he's running around your backyard, getting some play and training time with you, just work on calm and relaxing around those times. They need to learn to do nothing (active rest) and this is much harder than it sounds for them. It's a real skill they must develop. And they will if you capture calm, and try the relaxation protocols by Karen Overall and set the expectation with routine. Lots of sleep and downtime will be needed. Exercise needs will increase when they hit adolescence but don't increase them yourself until necessary. They tend to let you know.

For socialization, it's not just about having him interact with people and other dogs. It's about new experiences all the time. Before they have their shots, this is admittedly difficult. We did take ours to Petsmart and Home Depot and would hold him until he got too big or put him in the trolley on a towel. By the time he was too big, he had all his shots and we could put him on the ground. We also spent a lot of time just gong to parking lots and busier places and sitting in the boot with him (we have an SUV). This worked really well for a couple of months but then he wanted to be boots on the ground. Even just driving around with the window down in the car can be beneficial to socialization as thy watch the world go by, smell all the smells. Don't stress too much about this. Work on the bond between you and puppy and the rest will continue to organically develop. Over time he will get new experiences and spend time in the company of people and other dogs etc.

For later on, check to see if there are any pack walks in your area. This has been invaluable for our puppy. He started at just over 9 mths and has been doing them almost 2 mths now. We had not seen such a change in him until now. He is way calmer, way more fulfilled and basically runs to the van as soon as his walker shows up. He goes rain or shine and even now that it's colder. He simply gets to do the things that his breed should be doing and he sleeps better and settles more around the home. We were just not able to meet his needs during our work week and with the change of season. Long evening walks no longer really possible. And this is worth every penny if you can swing it. Way more controlled than a dog park and less crazy than a daycare (I would call daycare a close second if you can find a small daycare that really is careful about how they form the groups for dogs. Charlie was in daycare from 5 to 7 mths and really liked it too). Learning from other dogs in a controlled environment can also be really helpful.

 

[wendysue1959]

@nyokabi Thanks, this is really good advice. I forgot to mention we do have one small bed right now that we transport from the crate in and out. When I take it out of the crate he finds himself laying there or anywhere else, but he does seem to like it so I wanted to buy him a better bed for outside the crate. The one we have right now was just some random cheap one, which is why I wanted to buy a large one he can grow into. I feel like he is an active breed so to not let him outside often is inhibiting his mental and physical stimulation even if he is a puppy. We let him out once every hour to potty but we also let him run around for 5-10 minutes or so. It is knee high snowing right now but he seems to be fine which is good. So you are saying I can just let him out to pee and not exercise some of the times? I also read the 18 hour sleep thing, and although my puppy does nap a lot, I feel like he is up way more than 6 hours in a day lol.
Not sure what a pack walk is but I doubt my area has them because I am in a small town with 30 000 people. Also sucks because we lack resources like an indoor pool for dogs which I want my dog to get into.

 

[anika98]

@wendysue1959 Hi! New pup owner in Canada as well, I feel you. I use a similar kibble and my shepherd-lab GOBBLES it. Training is definitely harder when they're not food-motivated, but I think working dogs/mixes like yours eventually can sub attention/toy play for food rewards.

For the crate, don't force it or it'll never work. If he's not food motivated, just spend some time sitting beside the open crate with him, let him wander, whatever. Take your attention off him (read/scroll/whatever) and big 'ol GOOD BOYS if he 1: looks at the crate 2: sniffs the crate 3: partially in the crate 4: IN the crate (etc)

In regards to snow/Parvo/socializing, now is the most important time. Talk to your vet about your local Parvo risks, and don't take them to high-traffic areas (like fenced in dog zones). These few weeks are essential for socializing them and taking them out into public, it doesn't need to be dog-on-dog. Also, they can socialize with other dogs you know well with confirmed vaccination statuses.

Going to Canadian Tire is actually a GREAT idea, that's literally what my puppy class trainer said the other day! You can also get him into a puppy class as soon as he's had his first set of shots (usually), so that's a good option. Also, he'll just need to get used to snow Short walks, boots if he fusses.

Enjoy the new dude!!

 

[wendysue1959]

@anika98 Thanks. So what do you think I should do when we go to sleep though if I can't force him in the crate? I could sit there for an hour trying and he won't go in there on his own will. I definitely should have him sleep in the crate over night though right?

 

[anika98]

@wendysue1959 I mean, it depends. It's very anti-cry-it-out in this sub, which does make sense. If they're a little whiny in the crate that's okay (imo) but if they're yelping/in distress it's not.

for the first few nights my partner slept on the couch downstairs with the pup in her bed on the floor (the room penned in, etc), which might be worth a shot. I would say don't push the crate at night until your dog is comfortable with it (if ever?)

 

[wendysue1959]

@anika98 Well he freaked out the first night and a bit less the 2nd and it gets better every day. He doesn't make a scene anymore and mild whimpers which he does stop soon enough, but I mean, he just straight up doesn't like being in there. A lot of people say their puppies grew to like their crates. My guy will stay in there without freaking out anymore, but it is apparent he is unhappy when confined in his crate and I wish I could change that. I sleep beside him for like an hour (outside his crate) and then wake up and go to my room upstairs, but he wakes up and whimpers as I leave. I think it is a bit better I tired him out first so he gives up quick and goes back to sleep, but it just sucks knowing he dislikes being in there. I'm not sure if I can ever get him to like his crate. He loves sleeping with us. He will tuck himself into my arms, stomach, neck, legs and wherever to just be touching me while sleeping lol. He sleeps in like every position possible too. Superman, elevated head on top of something, donut, on his back, side, it's hilarious. Hard to pick out a bed too because he sleeps in so many positions.
The pen thing seems tempting for sure, but I will have to wait it out. As everyone says on here, he is just a puppy and he is still new to my home so I think he is adapting more every day.

 

[anika98]

@wendysue1959 oh my gosh how adorable. Might be worth a try when he's really young too to put the crate in your bedroom?

For my girl, I used really High Value treats when she goes in her crate and they're special Crate-only treats. Now she runs in there and looks at me like 'liver treat time...?'

And yes- bundling them into the crate at night when theyre ALREADY sleepy/mid-nap is waaaay easier than trying to get them to settle in there

 

[wendysue1959]

@anika98 Lol there is no treat he likes. I literally went to a pet store and had him try samples and he rejected all of them. It is better when he is tired because he will fall asleep faster, but even if he is asleep and I move him, he wakes up and tries to escape before I can close the door. He doesn't freak out anymore, just whimpers a bit then gives up. But I know many puppies don't mind going in the crate and I just wish that was the case for my guy.

 

[anika98]

@wendysue1959 whimpers is a huge step! Not all dogs will LOVE the crate, and i dont plan on carrying mine into adulthood. He'll get used to the routine and when you can trust him to be left alone and not destructive, you can phase it out

 

[wendysue1959]

@anika98 Man, the worst part is, my puppy was nearly perfectly potty trained and refused to go potty until he was outside, but it has been -27°C to -30°C weather lately and I can tell the temperature is painful to him so we had to stop letting him out. He for some reason won't go in our garage (been successful a couple times, but usually won't) so we had to put fake grass and some peed pads in the guest room and he will either go there or a random place indoors now. I am worried all that outdoor progress is out the window. Waiting for some boots to get delivered so he can go outside just for pottying hopefully.

 

[wendysue1959]

Sorry what does on lead mean? On leash you mean?

 

[blaor]

@wendysue1959 What kind of food do you train with? Our Keeshond is a picky guy, so his favourite treats are reserved for training only, he doesn’t work for kibble. Do you have a trainer/behaviourist you work with? We have a fantastic (positive reinforcement) trainer that helped us with crate training. Our boy hates being confined and we just kept at it with crate training, she advised us to get a playpen and use that as his personal space with the crate in it. So during the day he get locked in the playpen for his “alone time”, and at night he sleeps in the crate. This has made such a difference for us, but not a decision I would have made on my own as we did want him crate trained.

 

[wendysue1959]

@blaor I use Royal Canin Medium Puppy kibble. I have tried this Zuko peanut butter treat which he won't try, I bought dehydrated beef liver which I haven't opened yet, but we tried giving him one at the vet and he refused, and greenies which he will eat, but doesn't care enough to train for it.
We wanted to take classes right away, but they recommended us to get all the shots first which is 9 more weeks left and I just feel like this is the worst part and we miss out on so much for the early stages of his life. Do you have a person that comes to your house? If so, how much is that and how many times is that necessary?
How did your dog react to the play pen at first? I know my puppy will try to leave that too. Also, for the first 3 nights the crate was in our room, but last night for the first time we put the crate in the living room for him to sleep and I do think he liked that less, but I thought maybe that would be better for him since our room is upstairs and I always had to carry him up so he could even access the crate. He never goes in the crate on his own will though.

 

[messiman10]

@wendysue1959 My border collie also wont work for 'normal' food - he'll listen extra hard for liver treats, but more for spd prime roll, boiled chicken or cheese. If I give him 'low value' food he's just like 'excuse me, this isn't the standard I've been accustomed to'. When he's on, he's absolutely on though. I taught him recall early and he was reliable off lead from 5 months old, he's crazy smart but also an absolute dickhead at times. Having a smart dog is a blessing and a curse

 

[wendysue1959]

@messiman10 Yeah, just yesterday for the first time he ate some liver treats after I broke it into smaller pieces. I think I can still use kibble as a resource as long as he gets hungry which is only a bit at night. I take away his bowl when he eats a bit and walks off so he always leaves a bit of room and then I throw a bit of kibble into his crate which is a god damn game I have to play every night and it gets harder every day lol.

 

[wendysue1959]

@messiman10 Hey, thought I would reply to this comment again. How did you go about teaching recall and going off lead? Is that when you let them go without a leash? My puppy is waiting for his 3rd and 4th parvo vaccines so we haven't been able to walk him or even take him outside (aside from my backyard and me carrying him in pet friendly stores). But I know he bites on his leash so I have a lot of training ahead of me. My puppy is 12 weeks old now. He can sit every time and every other call I do it with a reward. He can do down, paw, high five, roll over, but I struggle getting him to stand and I really want to be able to teach recall and heel. Thanks.