It's like they are speaking another language, as is my dog. I just dropped cash on another positive trainer, and I'm dumbfounded.
I have tried 4 R+ trainers. I have no connection with these trainers and I can't grasp their communication styles. I'm also not impressed with how my dog is treated.
I'm on pro number 4. Maybe it's me
Edit: by R+, I meant positive reinforcement. Our dog has never been punished or had adversives used in training. She is a rescue, so she might have had that in her past, but not in her time with us.
@stateemil Yup definitely have had our fair share of bad trainers. Comes with the industry and its lack of regulation. The biggest thing for us has been doing the research ourselves with online material from trainers who specialize with reactive dogs. Other than that we’ve had pretty poor luck finding legit trainers IRL. Still hurts thinking about how much we spent on a “dog whisperer” from Los Angeles..........
@davsunram Thanks for the advice and support. I have read a lot of books on reactive dog training and also scour the internet for advice. I feel like I do all of the CARE steps pretty consistently and have been for nearly two years.
After trainer 3 and Covid, I did it on my own, but a human in my corner that gives me confidence is why I sought out another trainer. I'm questioning how many reps / how much money I should spend when I'm already feeling less than optimistic.
@stateemil Definitely. If we had a human IRL trainer in our corner who was really good (and reasonably priced haha) we would be all over that too! I wish I had better advice in terms of how many reps / how much money is considered normal. It also probably depends on where you’re located. We’re based in California and the last trainer we worked with we were being charged $489 for 8 30 minute sessions which I thought was pretty reasonable (esp compared to the trainer we used before that). We stopped after our sessions though bc it seemed like online material was more helpful (and free).
@stateemil Oh man there are so many trainers out there that aren’t qualified, and on top of that, it’s really important to find one you can communicate well with. Certifications like CPDT-KA are a great place to start but they aren’t everything. Training dogs is a lot about training the person and teaching them, so it’s really important to find someone you are comfortable learning from.
As for verbiage and language, a lot of the most up to date dog training lingo and terminology can sound really foreign! In an effort to bring R+ to a broader range of folks and convince people used to more “old school” methods to convert, I think the professional community at large has sort of pulled together a mishmash of training, learning theory, and scientific language but also is trying to make it accessible at the same time so the language ultimately can get kinda wacky. The wiki here has some lingo and definitions and articles which might help you get used to some of it!
@stateemil Any industry that is allowed to self-certify its experts is a problem and is going to be a sure source of fraud and incompetence. That doesn't mean that there can't be well-meaning trainers or competent trainers, but just reading through posts on this sub, you can readily see that people are dumping a phenomenal amount of money out there and not necessarily getting results. Fundamentally, though, there is a problem with a person that claims that they can understand what a dog is thinking. It is what psychologists call "magical thinking" and "confirmation bias", which are basically beliefs based on anecdotal evidence, rather than proper statistical data and it is certainly not limited to the dog training profession.
@stateemil Unfortunately a lot of dog trainers I've met have been real quacks, idk what one has to do to become a trainer but apparently it's not much because some are just plain nuts.
@shontellewilson You don’t typically have to do much, because legally you don’t have to be “licensed” having clients is a better way to get a good reputation. I’m not licensed yet because it’s insanely expensive but I have clients who trust me. I agree though. A lot of trainers especially the overly expensive ones are sometimes really crazy
@callitgrace I think that’s part of it, anybody can claim to be “licensed” because normal people have no idea what governing bodies exist. I mean shit, i can start technically licensing people. But good to know bout CCDPT, thanks.
@imagebeastmarkbeast That too. I don’t claim to be licensed, in fact I let my clients know up front that I’m not but I have good reviews from my past clients that I show. I also never expect anyone to hire me if they are worried about me not being licensed
@stateemil We worked with one of the most highly rated and respected trainers in our area and he clearly was great with dogs and horrible with people. I honestly have never worked with someone who was more insulting. He would constantly berate us and belittle us for not being perfect at it or not already knowing something. It was truly bizarre, because having now had my dog for a while I think the best thing a trainer can do is boost your confidence to help keep you calm and keep your dog calm. Meanwhile this guy would give us a clicker and we’d try and he’d shout at us saying Wrong! wrong! Wrong! Ask us obviously rhetorical questions and then demand we answer them? He would also scream at random strangers on the street for letting their dog come kind of close to us while we were out training (he thinks no dog should be allowed to meet another dog when on a leash) and like I get that but you don’t have to be a jerk about it (it was obviously some lady with a little fluffy dog who knows nothing about reactive dogs). He knew a lot I think but was honestly so burned out and incapable of relaying that information to us. I think he just saw too many crappy dog owners and was convinced we too were like everybody else (when there were are forking over thousands, standing out in the cold, trying out best).
And the thing is I sort of want to give him a crappy rating on Yelp or whatever so other people don’t have this experience but also it’s clear this guy has nothing else going on in his life and needs this business to survive. And so I just didn’t rate him and left it alone. I suspect I’m not the only one and so this guy has nothing but 5 star ratings. A friend of mine also worked with him and had a very similar experience ( but says they saw improvements with their dog). Idk it’s a wild world. We want to work with another trainer but we got burned so badly before we just keep putting it off.
@scrooge I feel like you're completely getting me. I feel like our trainers have been rude/dismissive... The first two being 'the best' in town, so many sources of recommendations pointed to these two... Vets, rescues, her dog walking company... All of our dog's "village" of trusted advisors said these are the best positive reinforcement based trainers in town. (Both also came with insane pricetags... $100-$120 per session with 'bulk discount' aka: stuck with them for a while before you even know if you'll want to work with them long term.)
I feel like burnout (and/or lack of passion for her job) was a factor with our first trainer, and ego / poor listening skills was the problem with our second. Both suffered from attempting to 'seem' nice and empathetic, but never did I truly feel like either of them were.
@stateemil I really don’t mind paying someone over 100 an hour or more. Training dogs and people is risky and hard and has no health benefits and I’m sure hours are very inconsistent, and I live in a high cost of living area. I make a good salary and I’ve got a bonkers dog who I love dearly and have never owned a dog before and clearly was in over my head. It makes sense that it costs a lot. The problem is the lack of value. If you cost a ton of money maybe be considerate to your customers, be encouraging, be supportive. Obviously correct me when I’m wrong, but like maybe an “almost! Not quite, let’s try this” is honestly all I need lol. And like level setting expectations? This guy was really insistent that all dogs no matter what can be trained perfectly. And like that’s just not true. All dogs can improve, some will make huge improvements, but my dog clearly has some kind of chemical imbalance and probably a trauma history. There is a limit to what we can accomplish. Doesn’t mean it’s not worth the effort of trying but the shaming me thing was so bizarre. This guy was a “balanced trainer” and I swear was trying to prove to me he was the alpha it was so gross.
Anyway, hang in there! Hope you find someone you can collaborate and learn with.
@scrooge Thanks. It's honestly not about the money, although I live in a fairly inexpensive part of the Midwest. It's about, as you suggest, value.
I'd gladly pay more. We do this unflinchingly for her behaviorist
Mine also has a chemical imbalance and verified trauma in her history. I guess it's just gonna be hard to find the right match, and we're close to the end of using the positive trainers within reasonable driving distance.
@stateemil I think dog trainers are mostly snake oil salesman. This is just my opinion but I think there’s a bad trend right now that says dogs need to be 100% trained and the dog trained out of them.
@imagebeastmarkbeast I do believe the trainers we've worked with came with primarily positive intention, and as 'qualified' as any can be. I guess I'm just questioning whether I will ever be able to do what they do. Maybe because I guess I've decided being able to train a dog is the only way of being the best reactive dog owner possible.... And I just can't do it, now matter how hard I try.
It seems like I'm doing everything I've been trained, but somehow I can't seem to follow the rules 'exactly' enough to get what I'm seeking.
@stateemil Some I don’t understand. But as I’ve learned more about training, from good, reputable trainers. I’ve learned to learn what I can from the good and ignore the bad styles. Positive training works for some dogs but I find that balanced training works for almost all. Hence, almost. What do you mean by R+? What are you having your dog trained to do? In what way are they treating your dog?
