How do you know when/if it is time for BE?

@mellowesile I’m so sorry that this happened, but I want you to know you haven’t failed anyone. I will say with my reactive dog, seeing a behaviorist was the best thing we have done. I highly highly recommend following through a plan with a behaviorist before going straight to BE. I wish you all the best!
 
@luze Vet and trainer on staff at the vet clinic both recommend a behaviorist as well. That is the route I wanted to go, but I wanted outside perspective. Thank you for yours!
 
@mellowesile Info:

A) Is this the first bite of this severity?

B) Are you scared for the safety of your friends and family (and maybe yourself) because of the dogs unpredictability?

C) is your home still a safe place with this dog present?
 
@stephen_nz A) Yes
B) Not for ourselves, I am worried that she bit my BiL, and that she might be more aggressive to other family who she has been okay with in the past. Muzzling may be the solution here.
C) I think so.
 
@mellowesile I support you friend. Whatever you choose. I am sorry you are going through this. There is no shame in protecting your family and ensuring the safety of your household. That is what a protector and responsible adult does. Dogs that bite get put down. That’s the sad reality. This is not your fault, and a very real outcome for many dogs that are forced through the rescue/shelter system because of misguided efforts and previous owners who offloaded the issue to you. Your dog attacked without provocation and caused injury requiring medical attention. There are so many steps to that specific event that this dog wasn’t capable of presenting. In case it needs to be stated, most house pets don’t attack their owners and family, and most dogs don’t need to be muzzled in their own home…you HAVE tried everything. You are not a bad person. I support you. It sucks so much.

I love you friend. Hang in there. 💛

PS - all dogs go to heaven.
 
@jadah Incredibly hard. Especially since she knows we've been upset the last few days and has been extra loving towards us as a result. I'm pretty sure she has no idea she is the reason.
 
@mellowesile One of my dogs will reliably bite any strangers in the house but never us. She was brought up in my house from two months old, exactly the same as my other two dogs who absolutely adore people. Go figure. She was super-territorial since day one. But I really don’t see it as a problem. I just lock her up when we have people over and don’t stress about it in the least. I didn’t even try to train her out of it because management is so easy and stress free - and I cannot see her ever being reliable in that regard. I would never consider having her euthanized over it. However - we don’t like having people over very often. I have the cleaning lady once a week and guests maybe once a week. In a different household it might be different.

I have to say I lived in a very high crime country where people actually wanted their dogs to bite anyone except for the family. Most dogs were not socialized on purpose and everyone would just lock their dogs routinely. It really isn’t an issue unless the owner makes it into one. I am not talking about dogs biting family members, that is very different. But guests can be managed easily. And management is much less work and stress than trying to train a very naturally territorial dog out of it.
 
@mellowesile No dog bites out of the blue , there’s always some kind of warning (even if it’s super subtle and hard to notice) so instead of worrying she’s going to snap at any point , remind yourself it’s not your fault and take the opportunity to educate yourself and those close to her on dog’s body language and warning signs. Clearly you found her threshold for tolerating guests , cut down on the time they’re in the house and muzzle her , but keep working.

You seem like you’re doing all the right things (although yeah I’d suggest the muzzle) and I’d keep at it.

Mark her good days and bad days down and keep notes on why it was good or bad and what stimulation there was, boundaries kept or pushed etc.

And yes definitely seek out a behaviourist to help
 
@messi Yeah, That is a good point. Even if my BiL says she didn't give a warning, there would have been something, just not something he registered.

We are getting recommendations for a behaviorist to see what steps we need to take moving forward.

The notebook is a good idea.
 
@mellowesile I am so sorry to hear that. My partner and I too have been thinking, pondering and constantly discussing BE for our dog for many moons but neither of us can bring ourselves to making the decision.

Our dog bit me once and my partner a few times but never drew blood - we live in fear of it. Unfortunately there is nothing I can say to aid your decision just to say I feel for you and understand the hard decision.

For our dog; she is on Prozac too. We have also put her on pain medication trial which made a difference to her behaviour- even though she’s only 2,5 years old she has bad hip/leg.

We did so much for our dog from training to seeing a dog nutritionist and cooking bespoke for her, giving her complete autonomy, controlling everything etc.
honestly I have no solution I wish I did. Just sending you love and patience whatever your decision.
 
@mellowesile How do you know when/if it is time for BE? I personally think this is a question to chat through with a qualified professional and determine what long term management looks like for you, the risk of management failure, and what management means for quality of life (both for the dog, but also for you!). It sounds like you have taken that step, huge props to you!

I've worked with dogs with bite histories. Multiple and unpredictable bites is something I think is incredibly difficult to cope with for even the most experienced homes; you're looking at constant environmental management and set up, excessive muzzle use, airlocks and inability for emergency handling without potential risk. Singular bite incidences which can be predictable in trigger are a lot easier to manage by controlling the exposure to the specific trigger.

For what it's worth, I also don't think your dog bit "out of the blue" - you indicate they have well established territorial aggression within the home to non-household members (and also a general anxiety disorder for which she is medicated), she displayed discomfort (barking), and then a non-household member was in a high value co-sleeping space (assuming that your dog often spends time resting near or even on the couch with household members) and I assume your dog was free roaming? Baby gates, soft crates, x-pens, tethering, muzzles, there's a lot of steps here that are available to you, if you want them, but at the end of the day you really have to be comfortable with the lifestyle and the liability of handling your dog's needs. I hope things work out for you, and I'm really sorry that you are going through a rough time.
 
@mellowesile Sorry this happened to you. I really don’t think this dog should be allowed on the couch at all. It might even be best to keep her in a separate room and/or crated if you have guests over. Euthanasia seems like an extreme step but you now have some perspective about how dangerous your dog can be. If you want to set this dog up for success, you must manage its environment.
 
@southernrunner That is the plan if we don't go with BE (which to be clear is not the choice I want, I just have to consider it).

She has struggled with people outside her "pack" being in the house, and every so often we try again using the conditions the trainer recommended. After this incident we won't try again. She will be up in her crate in our room, well away from any "non pack" people (ie: me and my SO).
 
@mellowesile I think that makes a lot of sense. When I first adopted my dog, she was crated with guests over. I would give her a peanut butter licky mat or high value chew in the crate to work towards desensitizing and creating a positive experience. Then I moved her crate into a corner of the living room and did the same thing. She howled the first time I had guests over and she was crated in the living room. I was so embarrassed but thankfully it was just a small group of friends. They understood and she eventually gave up and enjoyed her bone or whatever. From there, we progressed to a place command. We proofed it and I continue to reward her heavily for staying in place with guests over. I tell guests to just leave her alone because if you don’t she’ll bite your hand off. That’s not really true but it works. She’s well behaved so people tend to just forget about her just laying over there in her bed. It’s important that the bed/crate is in a corner or low traffic area. We don’t have issues with guests anymore. She just holds place with guests over unless I tell her otherwise. If there’s going to be heavy drinking or lots of food out, I’ll put her in another room or crate her. You have to recognize the risk ahead of time and plan accordingly. I know my dog is very pleased to be left alone in her bed and not have to interact with strangers. Now that I think about it, the place command with guests over is probably self-reinforcing since it’s such an engrained habit. It’s not punishment, it’s her safe space.
 
@mellowesile You’ve done what you can, and it’s already gone bad. Do you want to spend the next decade living in fear that you or someone else will be attacked again? Do you want to severely limit living your life to your fullest in order to contain a dangerous animal? Do you expect to go on vacations (who will watch a dangerous dog?), have kids, have guests over, etc.? What kind of quality of life will the dog have, being caged and muzzled and isolated for the next several years?
 
@saminjse She is never around kids. Doesn't like them and we learned sometime ago to keep her far away from them (no bites, just growling). If family with kids comes over, she is crated away (for short visits) or boarded.

Luckily for us, she is okay outside the home, so she can be boarded.

I appreciate the questions. It definitely seems like your vote would be to BE. After speaking with the vet and a trainer, we are going to hold out until we can work with a behaviorist to see if we can help her further.
 
@mellowesile I crate my reactive boy when people are over. If dogs are crate trained properly then they should see this as a safe space that they are comfortable in. I honestly think he is happier there when new people are in the house. I put a blanket over the top (not the whole thing as I want him to be able to see if he wants to, but he generally will settle down after a little while.

If you go down this route then it's important to make sure he spends time in the crate in non anxious situations too so he builds that feeling of safety. Mine sleeps in his crate every night.

To answer your question though, I wouldn't BE at this point personally. This incident was preventable (no criticism as I completely know the struggle and new situations take you by surprise). I would crate or muzzle during periods where you can't keep 100% of your attention on her and go from there. A level 3 bite is of course bad but I don't think as an isolated incident is a dead end. Only you though can make that call in conjunction with the vet or behaviourist.
 
@mellowesile Could I ask what breed you have? I’m sorry you’re going through this. My vet told me once that a dog reaches sexual maturity around 2 and that’s when you get to see their “full personality”. By that, she means their prey drive, territoriality, etc… I’ve heard of some dogs getting more aggressive when on furniture. Did he lean towards her? How did he get bitten if she was leashed? It makes me wonder if he moved closer and she reacted. Also, barks are typically warning signs. Mine only barks at “intruders” and that means they’re in a very alert mindset, ready to act if necessary
 
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