Food Vortex. Royal Canine vs...others?

[pizzaaddict]

My vet has recommended Royal Canine large puppy for my 3 month old lab.

I have been feeding her large breed puppy firstmate.

I cannot wrap my head around why royal canine is better food, specifically when examining the ingredients. I am not a animal nutritionist, but I do have a good understanding of nutrition in general.

Why is royal canine’s ingredients better?

Example:
Royal canine large breed puppy,
Corn, chicken by-product meal, wheat, wheat gluten, chicken fat, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, natural flavors, brewers rice flour, dried plain beet pulp, monocalcium phosphate, sodium silico aluminate, vegetable oil, fish oil, salt, psyllium seed husk, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, fructooligosaccharides, hydrolyzed yeast (source of betaglucans), Yucca schidigera extract, DL-methionine, taurine, vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), biotin, D-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, niacin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid], choline chloride, trace minerals [zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, copper proteinate], glucosamine hydrochloride, marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), L-lysine, carotene, chondroitin sulfate, rosemary extract, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid.

Calorie Content

This diet contains 3667 kilocalories of metabolizable energy (ME) per kilogram or 352 kilocalories ME per cup on an as fed basis (calculated).

V.S...

First Mate Large breed puppy :

https://firstmate.com/product/large-breed-large-breed-puppy-formula/#

 

[shagsnacks]

@pizzaaddict Probably because Royal Canine does feeding trials and has Veterinary Nutritionists and PhDs making their food. Only the largest companies will do feeding trials because it’s costly (Royal Canine, Purina, Science Diet, Eukanuba). First Mate doesn’t have a veterinary nutritionist or PhD on staff, which for me is why I wouldn’t feed it. (Actually I’ve used the wet food as a topper, but I wouldn’t feed as a primary diet). The people formulating the food matters more to me than the feeding trials. If you want ingredients similar to First Mate but scientists with relevant credentials making it I would look into Annamaet, Victor, and Inukshuk. Check out the Pet Food Alliance website. They have a handy chart where you can check if a company employs staff with credentials (of course not every company responded… but you can usually find it on their website).

 

[pizzaaddict]

@shagsnacks This is great info! Thank you! I appreciate your advice. Do you have a link to pet food alliance?

 

[sevilodorf]

@pizzaaddict https://petnutritionalliance.org/

FWIW Annamaet Victor, and Inukshuk do not have full time ACVNs formulating their diets and do not perform feeding trials.

Victor didn't respond to the PNA survey, and I know for a fact they have a chemical engineer with no education in pet health formulating their diets.

Annamaet consults someone part time which is better than nothing, but not anywhere close to Royal Canin; but no feeding trials, and they don't own a single manufacturing facility

Inukshuk did not respond either.

 

[iambenn]

@sevilodorf Victor is owned by Mid America Pet who also own Nature’s Logic, Eagle Mountain and Wayne Feeds.

They produce out of a facility they own in Mount Pleasant Texas

 

[sevilodorf]

@iambenn Okay. They have a chemical engineer with no education in pet health formulating their diets.

 

[pizzaaddict]

@iambenn This is similar to firstmate in the sense that they are owned by an animal feed company. Which in itself has a great facility and plenty of experience. And yet I am told for those reasons they should not be trusted. I feel that sometimes I don’t know what to do. Hahaha

 

[iambenn]

@pizzaaddict I have a friend that owns a pet store and through him I have met sales reps from many of the brands including the big 3.

The big 3 are the only ones allowed to see vets because the office managers will actively block anyone from the smaller brands.

They don’t give kick backs to vets but they do get highly discounted prices on prescription diets and other foods if they sign an exclusive contract with that brand.

 

[raeh]

@pizzaaddict Feed your dog what it does best on. I promise your dog is not going to explode if you feed it FirstMate.

 

[modestmatty777]

@sevilodorf If a brand is not currently developing new lines on food or feeding trials why would they need to continue employing a full time ACVN? If an ACVN has already developed and vetted a formula, what additional work would they have to do? Quality control? I would think that would fall to someone else…. It’s likely I am missing something here because a full time ACVN seems unnecessary if the food formulations have already been established.

 

[sevilodorf]

@modestmatty777 It's super important to have full time experts on staff, and that's something WSAVA and multiple other vet associations identify as being important.

First, ideally they'd be conducting/overseeing research and feeding trials. We know those brands don't do those things, which is part of the reason they don't have them on staff full time, which isn't exactly great. Having them on staff full time signifies (but isn't the sole signifier) an ongoing commitment to that research and learning.

But yes, evaluating ingredient quality, seasonal supply changes etc. are all in the purview of these expets.

 

[darren1980]

@pizzaaddict The answer is that Royal Canin is not an ingredients based food. It belongs to a more science-based approach. Honestly, you couldn't possibly argue with them because they have decades upon decades of study and testing that goes into their formulation. They do not pay attention to fads in marketing or consumer interests. They stick to what they know based on the clinical studies and lab testing that shapes their formulas and recommendations. The idea that ingredients alone determine the best formula is just not proven at this point. Theres just a bit of gatekeeping that still persists in the academic realm that will likely continue to cause vets to promote corn based diets, and theres not much anybody can do about it until more dog food brands continue to age and continue to produce their own scientific evidence that prove while ingredients are not the ONLY consideration, but hopefully in the future increase the importance of their consideration.

People used to be stoned for saying the earth wasn't the center of the universe, until it was proven otherwise. We're basically waiting for that. Trouble is theres billions of dollars and deeply trenched brands, vets(and of course an army of wanna be vets/vet techs who like to regurgitate what they hear while having no actual experience themselves), and politicians keeping things the way they are for a while longer. In the mean time, Royal Canin is still a great food. If your dog doesn't have a ton of food allergies, give it a try and let your dog's health speak for itself. You can always change later.

 

[ellenaus]

@pizzaaddict Definitely Firstmate

 

[pizzaaddict]

@ellenaus What are you basing your opinion on?

 

[ellenaus]

@pizzaaddict My bad I just now saw this

I’m basing it off of the fact that I really like the company

It has two grains which is really rare in dog food it’s usually 3-5 grains

I have tried Firstmate for my own dog and he has done great on it plus it’s high calorie so if you have a bigger dog it’ll last longer although their fish recipe and large breed is only formulated for dogs 70 pounds and up

 

[pizzaaddict]

@ellenaus The company you like is firstmate? Do you know of or use any other Canadian manufacturers?

I agree, I was impressed by the ingredients list. And that is what I was sort of shunned for. Haha! I also like that they are fairly local to me. I do wish that they had feeding trials or more “science” but at some point that science based evidence is paid for and can be biased. My only concern with first mate would be quality control, which I have zero knowledge about.

 

[hambone]

@pizzaaddict Does the vet actually sell Royal Canin food at their location? My vet also recommends it, because they sell it…I would never intentionally feed my dog a food where corn is the first ingredient.

 

[sevilodorf]

@hambone Vets don’t recommend diets because they sell them. They could make a very small markup (often less than the cost to order stock and store the stuff) on any diet. They choose to sell these diets because they’re backed by science.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with corn as a part of a balanced diet

Op, ingredients lists tell you nothing about the balanced nutrients or formulation. First mate invests in very little expertise or research compared to Royal Canin.

 

[pizzaaddict]

@sevilodorf I tend to agree with you on this. I suppose my confusion is that I do not understand what balanced nutrients are versus good ingredients. I do appreciate the science behind royal canine and the like. But when I compare ingredients they seem to have a lot of “filler” (corn, barley, beats etc...) saturated with additives/supplements. Versus brands like first mate having whole ingredients and supplements. My vet doesn’t make much, if any margin on the food they offer. And they certainly did not try to “sell” me on buying from them exclusively. They outlined affco and wasava guidelines, and told me to be sure I followed those when choosing a food. I ultimately want to feed whatever is best for my dog.

 

[sevilodorf]

@pizzaaddict I hear you, but those ingredients aren't fillers! Fillers are ingredients with no nutritional value, and corn, barley, and beets are excellent sources of critical nutrients like linoleic acid, Vitamin B-6, iron, fiber, selenium, etc. that dogs need to thrive.

And, importantly, you can get those nutrients from those ingredients in digestible forms without adding a zillion calories to the diet.

Because they're ingredients that have been used in pet diets for decades, experts and researchers understand well how digestible those ingredients are, what their nutrient profiles are, and how they interact with each other during manufacturing, digestion, etc.

The truth of the matter is that dogs don't need specific ingredients to stay healthy. They need balanced nutrients, and the exact food source those nutrients come from doesn't matter a huge ton. The dog's body can't tell the difference between iron from beets and iron from chicken. It just gets the iron.

And Royal Canin has decades of experience and evidence demonstrating they know how to safely get those dogs those nutrients in a safe form in a reasonable number of calories.

It's not to say that ingredients don't matter. They do! If you're getting corn that is underripe or moth-eaten, obviously that's not going to be nutritious, for example.

The issue is that ingredients lists on bags don't tell you anything about the quality of ingredients being used. That's why going with a company with strong quality controls and experts on staff who can evaluate supply lines and ingredient quality is so important.

Also, brands know you read those ingredients lists, and they know it's common advice to check for "meat first and avoid corn" and stuff like that. Many brands make an effort to ensure that ingredients list SOUNDS and FEELS to laypeople like you and me to be wholesome, healthy, and understandable. In boutique brands, that can come at the expense of proper formulation.

Royal Canin is actually one of the few brands, even among other science backed diets who have never truly succumbed to that marketing, and have always consistently stuck to the knowledge that their diets are balanced regardless of how many people feel their ingredients list isn't pretty.

https://www.alltradesdvm.com/topics/nutrition/how-to-evaluate-pet-food-using-ingredients

https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2016/06/why-you-shouldnt-judge-a-pet-food-by-its-ingredient-list/

https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2019/03/stop-reading-your-pet-food-ingredient-list/