E-collar 7 months? Am I ready/Is she ready? + Heat Cycle

[xyz2412]

Hi all,

Currently, 7 month old GR/cocker knows her obedience commands, sit, stay with duration, stay in place w/ dropped leash, heel in familiar routes, and recall (always working on this to solidify).

Is it ok to start introducing e-collar and collar condition? The e-collar would be my insurance policy for recall and let her off leash. Also, if it helps solidify the obedience commands, and I can work it to where she eventually does not need e-collar stims, then even better.Secondly, she started her heat cycle a week ago, so her behaviors have been a bit different.IE. - lack of appetite/skips some meals (we know she'll eat, because she'll instantly take treats), increased alert barking at neighbors passing by at night, increased wanting to sniff on walks. Do dogs do this during the first heat cycle or is this also part of her fear period?

Is there a negative side effect to e-collar during heat or should I wait? If she's 'confused' with her hormones/body changing could the e-collar cause more confusion? We're going up to the mountains 4 weeks from now after her cycle ends and was ideally hoping I could overlay an e-collar for recall by then.

Lastly, DOGTRA Arc handsfree or DOGTRA 280C***?

 

[doks]

@xyz2412

Do dogs do this during the first heat cycle or is this also part of her fear period?

I personally wouldn't introduce an ecollar during a heat. Pretty much all the bitches I know go weird in their heat cycle. My own ranges from "bitch, I'll cut you" to "please love me, I'm so pitiful". I still train during a heat cycle, but I err far more heavily on the 'keep it simple' philosophy and make sure we're setup for success.

Given your timeline, I mean, you could try it and see how she goes with it. Layer it super heavily with rewards, but I'd back right off if you start seeing sketchy ass behavior. Superstition is a pain in the ass to undo. I personally wouldn't do it, I think timelines like this put pressure on us and the dog, and can bring out less than the best on both ends of the leash.

As for your last question, I've heard less than stellar things about the arc and it's consistency. It's why I dropped it from my wish list.

 

[xyz2412]

@doks Thanks for the insight. I’ll lay off on introing e collar for now... I’d rather not give any reason to potentially cause sketchy behavior. She definitely seems more protective from outside noises and people who pass by our house when she’s at home. She’s also sniffing way more.

For consistency, do you mean the stim level consistency? What are you using now?

 

[doks]

@xyz2412

For consistency, do you mean the stim level consistency?

Yeah, probably the most important thing. I've basically heard that a 5 doesn't seem to be a 5 consistently. So it's a cluster to train with. They may have made improvements since then, but it's hard pass from me.

I use a mini-educator.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@xyz2412 I’ve only had male dogs personally, but whenever females in my club go into heat the advice given is, don’t train. If they seem really really into, fine but no reason to give them a chance to make negative associations because they’re off their game. Just take it easy while she in heat.
As for the e collar, I personally don’t like the idea of an e collar as a ‘safety line’/‘insurance policy’. it makes me think that the person might not properly introduce the e collar so they’re really just using high level stim as a pain compliance tool to make the dog halt. I’m not saying this is why you’re doing, but I’d try and find some literature on how to condition the e collar to ignite behaviors, and use it on very low levels throughout your obedience training so you are unlikely to ever find yourself in a situation where you’re using the e collar as pain compliance from a distance.

 

[xyz2412]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Thanks for the insight with female dogs and training.

For e collar I wouldn’t want to use it at a high level stim, but a working level. Im following Larry Krohns channel. As I mentioned, it would be to reinforce her known obedience commands. I wouldn’t want to zap her at high level stims either.

For insurance policy, I meant this as a leash without a leash persay. The last thing I want is for her to go after a bird, blow off my recall, and run onto a road.
Also, Id like to work with her her off lead at distances. Right now she’s on a 25 ft line and is improving at obedience commands.

So in essence, no e-collar conditioning during heat?

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@xyz2412 I definitely wouldn’t introduce it during heat. Next year (or 6 months, i forget how often bitches go into heat) if you’ve been working with it I wouldn’t worry about it as much, but you wanna use the E in conjunction with motivation, use the stim to guide the dog to the reinforcer. If the dog isn’t motivated by the reinforcer then the e collar isn’t gonna do much unless you crank it up.

 

[xyz2412]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Ok got it. I'll wait til her cycle ends.

A question for the future when we do start e-collar conditioning:

If she's on prong collar right now, should I switch her to the flat collar during e-collar conditioning to recall?

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@xyz2412 I like to pair them. Think classical conditioning
The dog understands the prong correction, but doesn’t understand the e collar correction, so let the e collar correction predict the prong collar correction.
The dog understands how to avoid the prong correction, so when it realizes the e collar is a predecessor to the prong it will understand how to avoid the e collar as well.
Obviously we want the positive reinforcer to be what motivates the dog to carry out the obedience, but using the prong as a bridge for teaching is good, but you can use the E collar by itself to teach new commands if you want.

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@xyz2412 you have the right idea especially if you are following larry krohns method. it worked really well for my dog. i'd wait till she's not in heat though. 7 months is not too young, i'd say six+ is fine but it obviously depends on the dog.

I have the Martin Systems Chameleon III and i think its the best one on the market, however it is quite expensive but it's very low profile and seems more comfortable for the dog than super high/tight fitting brick style e collars. it can be worn mid way through the neck, confirms contact and you can throw a strap and buckle on it and it doesn't even look like an e collar anymore (if you care about that, i personally dont i just think it looks cool and is easier to take off/put on). i actually just made a post of my DIY with it. its pretty much his ID collar, E collar, and GPS collar all in one. i feel very secure knowing that combined with his training it pretty much has everything i'd need to get him back in that 'what if' scenario and he doesn't need to wear several collars to achieve it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenDogTraining/comments/gr4zws/e_collargpsid_collar_all_in_one

 

[xyz2412]

@jesusreigns4ever Wow your collar is nice. All-in-one seems to make it very convenient too.

Martin Systems definitely a bit out of my budget, but I dig what you did there.

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@xyz2412 thanks! yeah i can tend to get carried away. i started off with a mini educator got frustrated with not being able to make consistent contact through his pomsky mane and somehow wound up here lol.

 

[xyz2412]

@jesusreigns4ever Can't blame you for rigging it to look way cooler than stock. TBH if I didn't see your mod, I probably would have insta-passed on the chameleon, but seeing your mod, I am going down the rabbit hole lol.

I see there's several Chameleon combo + systems, extenders. Is there a tldr for what is what? Which one did you end up getting? My dogs mane is probably much less 'volumous?' than pomsky's, but I did read about the annoyances of contact points not making contact, and some handlers shaving down the hair of the contact point. I'm not trying to shave a patch in my dogs hair.

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@xyz2412 haha thanks i honestly love tinkering with stuff and modding things so its fun. Its hard to find info on these because almost everyone gets mini educators and dogtra so I'll give you everything i know. Larry does have a video on them but its not that specific.

so theres a few combos. but here's the TLDR

Standalone collars:

Chameleon II is their 'top of the line' QI wireless charging unit but its not really like a 'rugged' every day beat it up collar.

Chameleon III is their rugged If you're looking for an every day, rugged collar you want the chameleon III. this is what i have. Both chameleons confirm contact but the III does not have wireless charging (Which is honestly fine). it also has the ability to run smaller and is more symetrical. it costs less, is more rugged, and i would definitely go with this one.

Extenders:

These mount to an existing e collar brick and essentially just act as additional contact points. Theres no contact confirmation and all of the control and stim level is based on your existing e collar setup.

Remotes for the standalone unit:

T4FK if you get the combo its the least expensive combo to get. you get the remote + a finger kick (which operates your continuous/stim button via Bluetooth and its fully water proof, the main remote isn't) it pretty much has most of the functionality of the Pt3000 (outlined below) but only has a 200m range, and its kind of like the equivalent of texting on a cell flip phone vs typing on a keyboard. All the functions are there but you may need to press one or 2 buttons at once to switch modes or whatever. in actual use, its completely fine. You can switch stim levels quickly, you can stim, and you can switch it to 'rising stim' mode which does what it sounds like, it increases the stim every half second as long as you hold it. it ONLY has the ability to do constant stim, and if you want to do a 'nick' then you just tap it. Its rechargeable but i'd suggest charging it after every 2 days if you use it a lot. the battery is not replaceable but they will replace it for you for free within 2 years or something.

Pt3000 does a few extra features but most importantly has a 3000ft range, can connect to multiple dogs at once. its water 'resistant'. it does have a nick function (i am almost certain but i'm not 100% sure). takes a button battery that is replaceable and is not rechargeable.

Contacts: it comes with injection molded and standard contact points. the feather contacts are option but i highly advise them. they really nestle into the fur of the dog without being overly tight. After a TON of experimentation i wound up using 1 set of feathers + 2 sets of injection molded contacts. the more contact points you have the more the stim is reduced bc the electricity is being spread over a greater number of points.

they also sell an elastic strap with a buckle as a 30 dollar kit (which is like what i have, i just made one myself because my dogs neck is too small for their strap and i wanted it to be winter camo and have a cobra buckle. but I've seen it on another dog where i train and its very nice.

I did the Tf4k + finger kick + chameleon III medium combo with 2 sets of feathers. i only use 1 set of feathers. i would NOT get the heavy feathers they're overkill and very stiff.

That being said i literally just (yesterday) ordered the pt3000 because i do want to be able to work more long range with him. If i could do it all over i'd probably just get the pt3000 kit if you live in a place where you can readily let your dog off leash in an open area and let them get reasonably far from you. 200m is pretty decent but you know how RF is quoted only in IDEAL situations, and i'd rather not have a situation where my dog is 100m away and there's some trees or rain and he's not getting a signal. However, I've had this thing for months working in my backyard, out in some fields and never had an issue with range.

If you do end up ordering it order it through https://tndtk9equipment.com/ Tell him Jeff with the pomsky referred you. i dont get anything out of it it but i do/did ask him a lot of questions and he's always super helpful so i'd rather him know i referred someone to him. super fast shipping and the best price (and trust me i did a ton of research and shopping) if you have any other questions i'm happy to answer for you or reach out to mike and he'll help you. but yea i'd suggest the following:

Chameleon III (in whatever size) + pt3000 w finger kick combo, a set of feathers, and the elastic strap.

if you really think you'll NEVER need the range of the pt3000 then the t4fk is probably fine but the pt3000 has some features that the t4fk doesn't.

 

[xyz2412]

@jesusreigns4ever Thank you for this info. It makes sense now! I noticed it has 18 stim levels... I was originally thinking Dogtra because it had 127 which means a finer tune of stim levels. Is the 1-18 on the chameleon pretty smooth or does the stim level seem to increase noticeably between numbers?

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@xyz2412 yea i mean theres ssomething to be said for 100/100+ stim levels which is nice but honestly I've never noticed a point where it goes from the dog blows it off and then you go up one and he yelps or something. having that level of precision is nice but it seems like overkill to me. in a perfect world i'd say something like 25 or 50 would be ideal. 100 seems unnecessarily high bc no one is going to cycle level by level they're almost indistinguishable. people will just jump 5 to find a working level and go from there.

i only have the ttf4k so i've never even put it in the mode where you can reach the higher levels because i've never needed to. i have used an 8 or 9 once or twice when it was, what they call an 'act of god' correction. he was about to eat grass seed in the yard and i did it while looking through a window in the kitchen. he never did it again. he yelped but it was fine.

a 1 is like a 6 on a mini educator a 2 is like a 9 or 10, a 3 is like a 12-13. i didn't test the mini educator any higher than that but i've tested the chameleon up to an 8 on me. i'd say like 1-4 is where you'll probably wind up working depending on distraction level and 5+ is where you start to get into like needing to call the dog off while in drive or give a correction. i almost never have to take it off a 1-2 but he really doesn't blow off commands much anymore. if you have all the contact points in like i do which is 3 on each side you basically don't feel the 1 at all. if you only have 2 contact points its like a little tickle. the number of contact points makes a big difference.

 

[xyz2412]

@jesusreigns4ever Ah ok got ya! Thanks for the clarification. Decisions decisions

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@xyz2412 haha indeed! if you have any other questions let me know!