[Discussion] accidental inbred puppy rescue for Bernese mountain dog Q’s

[moomoo3709]

Question about rescuing from an accidental inbred litter

Hi all!

A woman who lives near me is having an accidental litter between a brother and sister (from what I understand the brother was supposed to be fixed and got put on a waitlist due to covid, and accidentally mated with the sister). There are 5 puppies due and she’s desperately seeking out owners (otherwise they’ll be handed off to BMDCA rescue, she’s already working closely with them and a vet).

Both parents are 100% purebred and come from a healthy lineage (no history of cancer, hip dysphlasia, or eye issues). While this is obviously not ideal I’m curious if anyone has any insight to potential implications/issues from the inbreeding, or if this would be ok. Hoping to rescue one of these pups.

 

[banky]

@moomoo3709 I would worry less about the inbreeding and more about the situation as a whole. Was it really an accidental mating? Is she charging something for the puppies (other than maybe a couple bucks to pay for their expenses)? Has it ever happened before? Two of my dogs (including the current one) came from litters like this: one of them was free, and the other was about the same I see people paying for at shelters/rescues as adopting fee, and it never had happened before or happened again.

If you have any doubt this was planned for money, don't give in to temptation. Otherwise, I have no qualms about it. Treat it like you would a rescue dog of unknown background and move on.

 

[moomoo3709]

@banky Absolutely an accident. Kind woman who owns 3 Berners, is in no way a breeder or prepared for this and has scrambled to prep. She’s giving them for free and panicking to find owners. Thanks for this note though - definitely not something I would’ve thought of in general

 

[banky]

@moomoo3709 Than I would say go for it. If she's already working with a breed rescue, the puppies would end up adopted all the same. You're just cutting the middle man here. Think of it as any other adoption, you're taking a shot and hoping it hits where you want, but be prepared to miss. Enjoy the ride either way. Confirming the info on the lineage is ok, but honestly not the biggest point here; you wouldn't have that luxury if you were adopting a dog of unknown origins. Good luck on your (possible) future puppy!

 

[moomoo3709]

@banky Thanks for this advice!!!

 

[johnskat]

@moomoo3709 I know you say the dogs lines are healthy, but is that proven at all? Do the dogs have CHIC #s through OFA? Are they doing all the recommended testing for the breed? Does the breeder title her dogs in sports or conformation?

How old were the parents? Did the breeder say why she didn't do a spay abort instead of letting the litter come to terms?

I'm suspicious that an actually responsible breeder had an accidental pairing, much less between siblings.

And finally...what would you be paying for the dog?

 

[christineleex3]

@moomoo3709 This does not sound like a responsible situation. Bernese Mountain Dogs already have a host of issues when bred with their pedigree in mind (they already have a small gene pool and a reduced/short life span). I can not imagine that these puppies will be free of issues.

I would also be concerned that they know they they have an accidental brother/sister mating that has a high likelihood of health issues (given the nature of inbreeding AND the health and longevity issues in the breed itself) and they opted NOT to spay abort.

My husband had a coworker with a Samoyed (a much healthier breed than the BMD) that was the product of a brother sister accidental litter and not only was the dog mentally unintelligent, he had a host of structural and temperamental issues that really caused quality of life problems.

Inbreeding so closely is detrimental bc even if the parents are healthy if they carry anything bad genetically, offspring produced from a close inbreeding mating have a higher chance of inheriting those issues.

 

[danicajav]

@moomoo3709 I don't think there is a Bernese line without high incidence of cancer... They're a really unhealthy breed in general. I don't think there's anything wrong ethically from getting a puppy, but you may be setting yourself up for heartbreak.

 

[trustmaster]

@moomoo3709 She should spay abort. Buying a puppy from her wouldnt be rescuing, it would be supporting irresponsible breeding

 

[jones1982]

@trustmaster That's an unusually eugenics-esque position, particularly in an era where rescue groups compete to snag pregnant dogs so they can resell the puppies at a profit. What's the argument for aborting 5 Berners? That they're highly inbred? That the owner could have done it on purpose for money? That the inbreeding makes them less healthy? Come on. They're an oops litter between siblings, something that has happened before in the dog world. It's not good, but it's not like they're going to be born with 2 heads. Maybe the owner did it for cash. So you abort the puppies as what, a punishment?

 

[banky]

@jones1982 No, it's a valid point and the position that should be taken at early stages in most accidental matings, purebreds or otherwise, especially in places with overpopulation. There's no reason to bring more unplanned puppies to a world with so many already, and these are the ones that end up in the shelter most of the time. In this specific case I don't think it's a viable option anymore since they know how many puppies there will be, so it's means late stage already. It's a pratical solution, nothing more.

 

[squareone]

@jones1982 Who is being punished?...

We honestly need more “eugenics-esque” positions on dogs. They are not humans. They are animals that we are responsible for in terms of population control.

We can not be creating MORE dogs in a world where we already have too many dogs in shelters. Do you know how many dogs get killed a day in the US??

The better question is why keep these pups if you can abort them? Or better yet, don’t make them to begin with? Pups don’t know what they’re missing out on, they were never born.

 

[jones1982]

@squareone According to the ASPCA's latest data (2012-2018) about 670,000 dogs are euthanized in US shelters every year. Divided by 365 days, that makes 1,835 dogs euthanized each day. Which is part of why my user name is nomorelandfills, as that's where those dogs, virtually all of them pit bulls, end up each day, plowed under at a landfill.

https://www.aspca.org/animal-homelessness/shelter-intake-and-surrender/pet-statistics

These numbers are high, but nothing like what they were even 10 years earlier, as the ASPCA notes. Dog overpopulation was almost over by the late 1990s. And the sudden kennel space and time and money drew sheltering people into an experiment with rehoming pit bulls. And those breeders jumped on that with both cloven hooves, and the result has been the pit bull breeding explosion that gluts every shelter in the world.

Eradicating dog breeding and aborting misbred Berners does nothing to end the misery of those dogs, or to empty the shelters. Aborting a litter of unborn pit bulls would be a far more effective action. Breed-specific legislation would be an even more effective action.

 

[trustmaster]

@jones1982 Also, there are tons of mixed breeds in shelters. Should we impose legislation on mixed breeds then? On labs, which are also common dogs in shelters? What about chihuahuas?

 

[trustmaster]

@jones1982 Please explain how bsl would help lol. Its been proven in lots of cases to not work.

Cracking down on irresponsible and backyard breeders and putting stricter regulations on people who are able to breed dogs would help address overpopulation, not bsl.

“Pitbulls” arent the only dogs in shelters, dude.

 

[jones1982]

@trustmaster BSL would help by honestly addressing the problem - people are breeding far too many pit bulls for the very limited number of homes which both desire and can acomodate a pit bull. Requiring a different standard of licensing, ownership, breeding and sale of this hugely overpopulated breed would bring the numbers down far faster than the current, pit bull breeder-supported approach of focusing on rehoming and demonizing euthanasia. The times when BSL does not work is when those who are paid to enforce it refuse to do so. Properly enforced, it would help everyone - except of course for the breeders and the grifters who are making a nice living off the misery of the dogs.

Cracking down on dog breeders overall, without specifying bull breeds, would be both pointless and useless. Pit bull 'advocates' would contest every single attempt to apply such laws to their fave breed, and exhausted locals would finally just bust the doodle breeders and call it a day. It has happened with every single effort to control pit bull breeders through 'fair' non-breed-specific laws; the pit bull groups claim they want parity, then the instant those laws are created, they shred them in each case that involves a pit bull, bullying officials into just giving up enforcement.

Pit bulls are the vast majority of the dogs in shelters and in the overall rescue system. It's visually apparent in every shelter, at every adoption event, on Petfinder, PetAdopt, etc.

 

[trustmaster]

@jones1982 Lol, again, “pitbulls” arent the only backyard bred dog. Cracking down on shitty breeders would help overpopulation, NOT bsl.

 

[jones1982]

@trustmaster Yes, this grand argument - it's not fair to hit pibble breeder cuz there's a guy selling BYB Frenchies on cragislist! - is why another 1,000 pit bulls were euthanized today.

 

[trustmaster]

@jones1982 Im literally saying that they need
To crack down on all byb, ESPECIALLY people who backyard breed bullies. You’re absolutely missing all my points but go off i guess.

Stopping shitty breeding of bullies and other backyard bred dogs is the answer, not bsl.

 

[jones1982]

@trustmaster Yes, you're saying BYB laws need to be applied equally. I'm saying the situation facing pit bulls is not equal to that facing, say, Labs, and there's no good reason to waste time and effort applying harsher BYB laws to people breeding Labs when the problem is in another group of breeders. Pit bull breeders are not going to switch over to breeding Labs if you implement BSL. Their interest lies in pit bulls. Make pit bulls harder to own, and those low-life breeders will be discouraged from dog breeding altogether.

The current situation of a very large number of easily available, cheap and free intact individuals is unique to pit bulls and a strong argument in itself for BSL for that group of breeds. I could acquire a breeding pair today, before dusk, and start my BullzWBigBallz Kennel tomorrow, for under $100. If I wanted to acquire a breeding pair of any other variety of dog, it would take weeks to months, and cost at least $1000. If I wanted to breed Frenchies, doodles, Yorkies, or some other highly in demand breed, the cost would be even higher. The ease of setting up an abusive, destructive breeding factory for pit bulls is such that the risk is much, much higher for pit bulls to be used as BYB fodder.

Many states already have strong legal regulation against dog breeding, period, let alone BYBs. I'm in one of those states. We're still hemorraghing pit bulls. The legal pressures of generalized anti-breeding laws have a proven record of working on most people who breed dogs, but has a proven record of not working on people who breed pit bulls. It's very obvious from any effort to find dog breeders in these states - tons of cragislist ads and FB pages for pit bull kennels, a handful of people breeding retrievers, spaniels, collies.