Demand barking, send help (again)

[krueman]

Demand barking. I need serious help.

I’ve posted about this here before but I’ve hit a wall.

My nearly 3 year old rescue has demand barked/grumbled since the day we brought him home, exactly 13 months ago. I thought it would be an easy fix, I was wrong. The majority of the times that he is not actively being paid attention to, or when I try to sit, lie down, or relax, he immediately barks or grumbles. (FWIW, he does not bark at anything or anyone except for me and my fiance.)

Some important notes:
* Aside from the first few days he was
home with me (I wasn’t aware it was demand behavior, I thought he was nervous) I have never rewarded this behavior by giving him what he wants.
* He receives 3-4 long walks a day, I do not have a yard. They’re a good mix of regular walks and decompression/sniffari walks.
* He receives plenty of indoor enrichment, and outdoor as we’re able (Sniffspots, hikes, walks in different areas).
* He gets lots of attention and love when he’s quiet and not being bossy. I love him to death!
* We are working with a trainer. More on this later.

What I have tried so far (all consistently, I’ve had 13 months):
* Teaching “quiet”. He was rewarded for his silence but the command never stuck.
* Standing up and leaving the room. I do it 15-20+ times a day. This stops him from barking but doesn’t stop him from doing it again. Effective but not sustainable.
* Ignoring. He’d go on forever if we let him.
* Crate time. We don’t use the crate as punishment, it’s a safe place for when we aren’t home. Sometimes he will stay in a closed room because he can be trusted now. Admittedly I did not do well with incorporating the crate for when I am home, and I’m paying for that now. Currently I am working to reincorporate the crate for when I am home with the hope that he can use it as a decompression space, but right now he won’t go in on his own, and when he does, he barks to be let out. He doesn’t bark in the crate when I leave the house.

Our trainers suggestions:
We are working with a +R trainer to get on top of this and some other small things like leash reactivity. She’s amazing and I trust her, but I’m not seeing much progress on this from her suggestions. She has recommended that we anticipate this behavior as much as possible and provide distractions (chew, Kong, licky mat, snuffle mat, toy) so that he can become comfortable with alternate behaviors when he isn’t actively being paid attention to. Here’s where it gets complicated: he is an allergic mess and we are 7 weeks deep into a hypoallergenic elimination diet, we have 3 more weeks left. He cant have anything except for his kibble and fruits and veggies— he has some unflavored nylabone type chews, but he’s bored with them now. There is nothing of a high enough value within this diet to motivate or distract him for a long period of time. I’m doing my best with blended frozen fruits/veg, but he’s burning out on it. My other frustration with this is that I cannot feasibly prevent this behavior 100% of the time. If this was once or twice a day, maybe, but I feel like I can’t give him 20 Kongs or snuffle mats a day. If I don’t manage to prevent him from demanding by distracting, I can’t just hand him a distraction and expect him to not interpret it as a reward for demanding my attention. Toy distractions are complicated because they are very high value to him, but only when they’re brand new.

I’m losing my mind. He is a good boy, and I love him a lot but this very annoying behavior is causing me to become very stressed and feel like a prisoner in my own home.

 

[prophetictimes]

@krueman Teach him an alternative behavior to get attention. I use "talk" (mine is a husky mix and I find talking a lot cuter than barking), "touch", "sit", and sometimes she will spontaneously give me a toy if she wants something (as if she is paying me, it's adorable).

You need to be willing to spend some time with him to get alternative behaviors embedded, so maybe start on a weekend or something. Wait for him to bark when he wants something. Ignore it until you get the smallest pause. Reward the pause immediately (I'd mark/treat) then ask for an alternate behavior like "touch". Then provide the thing he really wants. (Play? A walk? I'd try that.)

This did result in my dog nose-punching me with gusto when she wants something but I like it better than barking.

If he can't settle on his own you need to do a bunch of mat work to condition calm behavior. Look up "really real relaxation protocol". I find it better for conditioning real calm than the original.

 

[krueman]

@prophetictimes Thank you!

Finding the time is challenging but I’m willing to do it, 100%. I am quarantining right now so I’m dedicating as much of the next few days as possible to mat work.

Like you, I’d also prefer being nose-punched than barking

Once we are done with the Karen Protocol, we are doing the Suzanne Collier Really Real. I’m excited to see how both turn out. We’ve had to repeat several days with the Karen, he struggles with me walking towards the door as part of the exercise. But other than that he’s been doing well!

 

[armandocm]

@krueman Sportdog bark collars are great. They sense the vibration of the bark and can be set to allow the dog to bark once (no stim) but any other bark after that, the dog will get a stim that rises with each bark- but had a limit (does not keep stimming if dog does not stop barking). It has to be placed at front of dog's throat area (to sense vibration) and cannot be set off by other sounds (you) or another dog barking nearby. I've used this to train a bunch of dogs (8lbs - 40lbs) to not bark (or howl) more than one time inside. It worked and I always knew if my one of these dogs did bark one time (or more) something was wrong- they were not crying wolf. The citronella bark collars are far less humane as they flood the dog's olfactory senses for hours. It's an extreme punishment that has terrible 'timing'. I don't doubt that it works for some dogs, but the bark collar has amazing timing and consistency which is what dogs need to learn. Great investment. Don't spend less than $75-$100- junk is not reliable or fair on the dog.
Good luck!
PS: the R+ trainer might be able to help you, but it could take a year or more and will cost lot more money and be harder on you and your dog in the long run.

 

[krueman]

@jesuswasaballa Sorry I never saw this sooner! I’m not on reddit much. We absolutely have siblings haha. To be entirely honest, my only success was in going back to the ecollar (not initially mentioned in my post but in the comments) and conditioning the “quiet” cue. I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I tried everything else and worked with a reputable local trainer to re-establish a more appropriate working level. Now we don’t even need the collar most days and can tell him “quiet” and he gets the picture, or we put the collar on him and he settles down.

Edited for clarity

 

[jesuswasaballa]

@krueman Thank you for the response. I’ve never been a fan of e collars, but after lots of training, I’m running out of other options. He’s the sweetest boy, but that bark is driving me bonkers. He almost got us kicked out of Lowe’s when he did it to the paint guy who wouldn’t pet him. Luckily the security guard clearly understood dogs and distracted him while I got my paint. But the next person might not understand his intentions and some people misjudge him because of his breed so I have to train that out of him.

 

[krueman]

@jesuswasaballa I was never a huge fan either, until I (unknowingly) got the type of dog that literally will not respond to any other form of training for certain behaviors. I’ve been able to +R train just about everything, but leash manners and vocalization? Nope. I tried for two years and then I threw in the towel and sought out a balanced trainer.

After a few months of the ecollar for the demand barking he completely got the picture and was doing so so well, but we actually just moved out of state and he’s fallen back into old habits due to anxiety and confusion, so I’m back on my +R approach for now and will reintroduce the collar once he’s calmed down a bit.

I totally understand the annoyance! A fun new thing we’ve discovered, having just purchased a home (we were in a condo previously), is that he barks to high heaven when we are outside without him. It’s a demand bark for us to come back inside but it’s different— it’s frantic and unlike anything I’ve ever heard from him. He’s really not a vocal dog overall, he doesn’t bark at anything he sees outside, noises, visitors, or anything like that. Just barks at me and my husband lol!

 

[marknjohson]

@krueman This sounds like a husky. So idk if itll work for your dog, but; for my demanding husky i purchased those buttons where you record your voice on them, then you train your dog how to press the buttons and what they mean so they can effectively “talk” to you. This way instead of just bullying you by yelling, they can tell you specifically what they want. Once you figure that out, you can tech them the command “later” and “tell me” which is what i say to her to use her word buttons. Then and only then if my husky is still demanding attention, i give them a treat puzzle where you put the treats in and they have to push it around for then to fall out, except i put in treats that dont immediately fall out, make her work harder for it, keeps her busy longer. Much less bullying bc instead of barking at me, she can press the “outside” button and i go let her outside.

 

[krueman]

@marknjohson Not a husky, haha. He’s a pittie that was clearly allowed to do whatever he wanted for the first two years of his life (prior to his adoption, he had a different family).
I’ve thought about button training, but I want him to work on self-soothing first. Otherwise he’ll just use his buttons to demand attention instead of knowing how to occupy himself at times when we can’t be giving him attention (at least that’s how I see it)

 

[marknjohson]

@krueman You could try mat training

 

[krueman]

@marknjohson We are in the beginning stages. Thank you!!

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@marknjohson Had huskies growing up. No they don't learn to "talk" to you. They are like any other dog, they do what they are reinforced for doing.

 

[marknjohson]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Lmfao ive had my husky for 9 years who is fully trained and she still talks, and i have a friend who trains huskies as sled dogs and they go thru intensive training and her huskies still talk to her. She has 14 huskies btw and they all talk. Theyre a very vocal breed. Its not a learned behavior its an instinctual breed trait. Some huskies are more talkative than others. Just bc yours was quiet doesnt mean anything, let alone mean they were trained well.

 

[jayre]

@krueman A few things that may help based on your post:
- does he have a place command? It sounds like he has trouble settling, so training and building a strong place command should really help with this. You can tether him at first if needed, but this will help train him to settle and you can reward accordingly.
- Stop bowl feeding him and start hand feeding him existentially. Make him work for all his kibble and his food drive will increase. This will be great for you especially because you’re limited in what you can feed him, so adding value to the kibble will kill 2 birds with one stone.

This should give you two additional tools to address the barking, the place which will be associated with settling, and effective rewards for being quiet.

You also mentioned his e-collar working level was really high so you stopped. Out of curiosity, what was it, and could it just have been a matter of the wrong contacts so they weren’t making good connection with his skin.

 

[krueman]

@jayre He does not have a place command. I know I should have taught this sooner and I am paying for it. We are working through the Karen Overall Relaxation Protocol on a mat at the moment, and then we are going to build a “place” off of that. When we do get “place” going, somebody recommended a remote treat dispenser so he can be passively rewarded for his quietness.

He gets his breakfast in a bowl in his crate, and his dinners are slow-fed in a KONG Wobbler, it takes him about 30 minutes to get it all out, but recently he’s gotten too annoyed and stops halfway through and yells at us to give him the rest. I want to feed him dinner on walks as his training rewards but he eats 2 cups so I’m concerned about bloat. Maybe I’m overreacting on that?

The ecollar was a Dogtra Arc. It was fit snugly and I’m confident it was making good contact. It went up to 125 and he needed around a 40 to even begin to respond, I just wasn’t comfortable with it anymore.

 

[jayre]

@krueman That sounds like an overly complicated way to get to place, but if you’ve got a plan stick with it.

Personally I would avoid a remote feeder as I want to make sure the dog knows all good things come from me.

Does he eat 2 cups/meal or just /day? Risk of bloat really comes from the size of the dog, but most importantly just avoid full out exercise with eating (like high intensity fetching etc). You’ll see that it’s very popular to feed sport dogs their full meal during training and these are often large GSDs and similar. I would suggest you start making him work for his food as it sounds like he’s become a bit entitled (as much as a dog can be).

If your dog didn’t show any signs of response until level 40 it sounds like the contacts might not have been appropriate. That is crazy high for a working level. However for dogs that don’t show any response at low levels, some trainers will stop at 10 and continue the training/layering then recheck if the dog responds to recall taps at that level.

It’s perfectly ok if you don’t want to use an e-collar, but they just offer so much freedom for the dog and versatility in training that it’s a shame to see it go.

 

[krueman]

@jayre Its definitely over complicated but between continued leash training, reactivity management, reinforcing his other basics, and the relaxation protocol, plus working full time, I need more hours in my day.

For the remote feeder, this is a good point, I hadn’t considered that.

It’s 2 cups per meal. We continue to slow feed his meals through treat dispensing devices but I will try to start incorporating them into real training like walks and work at home.

The contacts were definitely on him and working, I could see the nerves in his neck twitch. He just didn’t care, at all. And it amped him up too. I agree that the ecollar is an excellent tool, and I was sad to give it up too, but now I am knees deep in +R and working with the trainer so I need to stick with that for a while.

Thank you so much for your advice!

 

[yakuda]

@krueman Bark collar.

Do not get the ultrasonic ones, I don’t know if the citronella ones work.

After a while you can take it off and only put it back on after repeat barking - the instance where you would reach for something to redirect you reach for the collar.

Not recommended for a dog prone to aggression imo, and likely will make your dog have a more nervous temperament possibly short term but possibly long term.

I’d also recommend pet calming diffusers like from relaxivet or thunderease, and training place possibly with a pet safe treat and train right next to you while you’re sitting somewhere doing an activity.

I’d go with the pet safe bark collar at the low end but there’s also some very advanced ones that will sync with an app on your phone and show you the reduction in barking over time as well as adjust the stimulation in a more sophisticated way. Don’t get any random cheap ones from some unknown brand.

 

[krueman]

@yakuda While he is not prone to aggression whatsoever, he is very easily overstimulated. Prior to starting +R we used an ecollar (not for demand barking, for overall behavior, I took a course and used it properly as instructed) but it wasn’t a good fit for him. His working level was SO high. I don’t know if maybe one was used on him in his past or what, but the corrections amplified his behaviors even when paired with a verbal cue so we stopped.
For this reason I have my hesitations with a bark collar….

I love the suggestion of a calming diffuser as we are unable to do calming supplements (aside from prescription meds which I don’t want to do, not opposed to them, but I don’t think they’re necessary here) due to flavoring. I’ll check out the names you gave.

I quickly looked up the Pet Safe treat device— is it a remote dispenser? It’s pricey but would definitely be a good investment.

 

[yakuda]

@krueman I highly recommend trying out a bark collar for literally just a day and if not returning it. It’s extremely different than “proper” e collar training for obedience, and it’s the only intervention that doesn’t require you to give more attention to your dog when they’re barking or about to bark. An obedience training program with an e collar uses, typically, negative reinforcement. A bark collar takes the owner out of the equation and uses positive punishment on an automatic basis.

The treat and train is a remote dispenser that I believe can train up to like five minute down stays with periodic treat dispensing. It’ll distract your dog and can reinforce teaching the dog to settle but it won’t counteract your dog’s reinforcement history for demand barking.

If you use a bark collar please let me know how it works for the dog. In the both cases I’ve used one it’s worked within a day.