Can barking be mostly trained out of a naturally vocal breed? And should it be?

[johny111]

Can I get some thoughts about minimising barking in naturally barky breeds and how much quiet you can reasonably expect through training? I'm thinking about my next breed and a papillon fits all my criteria except for being supposedly very vocal.

I don't expect to eliminate all barking but a quiet home is v important to me (autistic & noise sensitive) and I find alert barking especially difficult. I got lucky with my current dog who never barks except rarely during play, and I'd like another that can be trained not to e.g. bark at the doorbell - absolutely don't want a watchdog.

It was really easy to train my dog to be quiet cause neither breed in his mix are vocal (working cocker x springer). He literally barks a couple times a month tops. I'd never expect that near total silence from a papillon but what can I reasonably expect? Like is no barking in the house realistic?

And if a breed is natually barky is it even fair to try and suppress their genetic behaviour to that extent? At what point do you have to accept a breed isn't for you because of behaviours that are wired into who they are? For example I wouldn't expect a malinois not to bite things or my spaniel not to sniff & hunt so is it reasonable to except a papillon not to e.g. alert bark? Thoughts welcome.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@johny111

I wouldn't expect a malinois not to bite things

Yes but you wouldnt let them shred the house, the kids and the neigbours. Same applies here

 

[johny111]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Absolutely. So just to be clear are you saying you think it's reasonable to eliminate all barking in the house no matter the breed?

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@johny111 For sure, within reason, all dogs are going to bark to some degree but excessive barking is 100% something avoidable and controllable

 

[lw97nils]

@johny111 No. It's not reasonable. Think of it this way....you're basically telling a very talkative child to be seen not heard. I'm autistic myself so I get the noise thing....and from an autistic person to another autistic person...don't get a dog that's naturally very vocal. I LOVE huskies....would never own one due to how loud they are. It's not fair to them at all.

 

[jowi]

@johny111 If you want a quiet breed get a Bull mastiff.

But the key thing is to just not build the behaviour. I also find more stable dogs tend to not bark at random noises, they don’t alert so quickly and easily.

But I’ve seen plenty of mellow and chilled out chihuahuas and other breeds. If the dog is in the house generally it shouldn’t be a problem. It’s normally dogs left outside to amuse themselves that do so. But also blocking line of sight to the street also helps specially when young.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@johny111 This is a really interesting and well-put question.

I have a non-barking Swiss shepherd, which is a somewhat-barky breed. As we live in the city (and I also loathe noise), my #1 priority was to make sure he didn’t bark. I worked very deliberately on it from the day I brought him home: any new and interesting noise = click/treat, with the aim to interrupt the “novel noise”-bark association from forming in the first place. At the same time, his breeder had given me the quietest puppy in the litter with this in mind - a puppy who’d sit back and watch when the rest would run barking at the fence.
He is also from very mentally sound parents, his litter was raised on the first floor and exposed to the normal hustle and bustle of human life, and I spent the first year building a very confident dog. Lastly, I have avoided boarding him, and otherwise to put him in situations where he might pick up barking from other dogs.
I think all these things in concert resulted in a shepherd who doesn’t alert bark, but how much either of these factors mattered in isolation is impossible to say. A lot of these factors are within your control, though.

What I absolutely wouldn’t do is start with training a bark command. Putting the behaviour on a cue is something you do when the behaviour is already a problem. What you want to do is minimise the amount of times your puppy barks for any reason. Really let the brambles grow over those neural pathways.

If you have your heart set on a Pomeranian or a sheltie, I’d still temper my expectations. But there is no way that applying the factors I outlined above can’t at least ameliorate the influence of genetics.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@johny111 Your expectations aren’t unreasonable! Teaching a dog to be quieter is just impulse control training. Folks train dogs to leave wildlife alone, not chase, bite, demolish the house, run away, and a myriad of other things that fall into the same category.

With enough daily exercise and mental stimulation (which you’ve probably got dialed having a working Spaniel) they should be settled enough to practice impulse control.

I ran someone else’s Papillon in agility for a while and she was SUPER cool. I don’t remember her being particularly loud either. Absolutely a breed I would own.

 

[johny111]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Great to hear! Glad it doesn't have to be a dealbreaker for a breed that's otherwise perfect for me. Also, agility and other sports are the main reason I'm going for a papillon over other toy breeds so good to hear you've enjoyed running one.

 

[davecb]

@johny111 I don't own loud dogs.

But I have plenty of friends who have loud dogs. Shelties, Paps, Aussies, etc.

I would say some of it depends on someone's tolerance for barking but some of it falls under the, "pick your battle" category of things.

You can do all the training you want for some breeds and some individuals in that breed, but in the end, they are going to be far noisier than my Goldens.

I sometimes run my dogs in ASCA trials, which are done by the Aussie people. I bring ear plugs for when I am bar setting. Even dogs who are quiet at home, are often big barkers when they run.

If it's super important for you to not have a dog who barks, I think getting a puppy of a breed that can tend to bark, may or may not work out for you. There is variation and if you get a dog who is pre-wired to be a bigger barker in a breed that barks, I think there are limits to how much you'll be able to extinguish that.

I have a friend who has put multiple UD's on Airedales. Every dog she has owned has lots points at some time in the obedience ring, for barking. She is a good trainer.

 

[jake_dufner]

@johny111 There are barky breeds, do not get one if you want them to not bark. You’re not going to train vocalizing out of a husky, Pyrenees, or shepherd. There are tons of great dogs that don’t bark a lot, just pick one of them up.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@johny111 I had no idea spaniels aren’t supposed to be vocal because mine definitely is.

I hate barking but I also don’t think it’s fair to expect a dog to never do it because they’re dogs at the end of the day.

If there was a breed I liked but knew they were prone to bark a lot I simply wouldn‘t get it.

 

[phaeton]

@johny111 So I have a coonhound and a bloodhound. I'm not sure what their reputation is as far as how vocal they are compared to other dogs, but I can honestly say that the impulse to announce things by baying is genetic and very strong in mine.

I didn't find it particularly difficult to curve this behavior through training, but it did require consistent and time, so you should probably consider if you are ok with a learning curve and can ensure that other members of your household will help maintain consistency. It will definitely have to be someone's you do intentionally, it will not just happen like it seems to have with your current dog.

As many have pointed out, this trait doesn't disappear with training, you are only teaching the dog when it is appropriate, so it's important to have a time when you DO consider barking appropriate because they need to let it out sometime.

Ours do not bark at doorbells or known visitors or people in the front yard... But they are allowed to bark at squirrels in the yard only when they are outside and strangers in the back yard.

You should also consider how big of a hardship a papillon bark will be if they go crazy. It may only happen a few times a month or even a year but make sure it's something you can handle under stress as many dogs respond to stress by alert barking. Mine for example shake the windows with their baying which triggers anxiety attacks for my mother in law. Do you foresee a potential response like this?

To answer your question, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have parameters under which certain behaviors are acceptable as long as you do leave an acceptable outlet and ensure they have enough other stimulation that allows your dog to be a dog. No barking indoors is reasonable, but I suspect a daily barking outlet may be necessary.

 

[johny111]

@phaeton Sorry I'm so late but thanks for this answer. You've given me a lot to think about, especially about how I'd cope if they did end up being vocal.

 

[thoushaltnorkill]

@johny111 Let me rephrase your question: "Can you train any dog to be as quiet at home as your current dog?"
If that's what you're asking, then the answer is no.
Yes, they're more vocal and less vocal breeds, but at the end of the day, it's all individual, so it's unfair to generalise.

Now, to the question of why.
Why do you think dogs bark?
1. The dog gets a strong emotional response to an event. In case of home barking it's usually a combination of anxiety (fear of the unknown) and anticipation.
2. The dog feels the need to express their emotion, because this emotion might be difficult for them to process internally
3. The dog chooses barking as a mechanism to express the emotion.

Vocal breeds often have all 3 to a high degree. The dog is very sensitive to sounds/environment, the dog cannot deal with emotions internally and have a need to express themselves, barking is the most natural way for them.

So, changing stage 1 is almost impossible. It's near impossible to teach a fearful dog to be brave, or sensitive dog to be phlegmatic. It's their nature. You might be able to change their attitude towards one trigger, but not the other.

Changing stage 2 is possible, but it can (and most likely will) have negative consequences on the dog. You can put an e-collar (bark collar) on them and stop them from barking. Sure. But the dog was barking because it couldn't deal with the emotion, so by making it stop, you created a significant internal pressure for the dog. Having it done multiple times a day will have its toll, considering how basic and natural the behaviour is.

Changing stage 3 is possible, but it's tricky. You can redirect barking to some other OCD behaviour (e.g. biting a toy), but most likely you'd still get at least one bark out, because it's a non-conscious response, and redirection will be layered on top, meaning the dog will have to "think" before redirection, but it won't think before the first bark. But then... Would you enjoy that other OCD behaviour in your home?

It looks like your current dog didn't have a strong emotional response to begin with, so slightly modifying their behaviour towards specific triggers was easy. Your dog wasn't a barker in the first place. This wouldn't work with a sensitive, active and nervous dogs like many papillons are.

 

[johny111]

@thoushaltnorkill I'm v late but thank you for such a thoughtful response. This is really helpful.

 

[someguy1234]

@johny111 Hmm, I don't think you will eliminate barking to 1-2 times a month.

I have four chihuahuas. They are a barky breed. They begin barking for everything. The doorbell, the amazon man, the dog next door, rabbits, cats, etc.

A good bark starts every single day. Luckily, they are very well behaved so when I say, "That's enough!" they stop barking. I've never tried to stop them from starting the bark though, because I often can't hear the door/package guy but can hear the barking. They're very helpful.

I think you can probably greatly reduce barking, but what I wouldn't expect it to be that rare.

 

[clintpauljohnson]

@johny111 How vocal an individual is varies even within vocal breeds. If you're set on a papillon, I'd look for an adult dog that is relatively quiet rather than getting a puppy and hoping for the best.

In my experience you can train dogs not to bark at specific things, and you can train them to stop barking when asked, but you can't 100% train out the initial impulse to bark at sudden changes if that is what the dog is instinctually inclined to do.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@johny111 Teaching your dog not to bark starts with teaching them to bark. Normally I'll find something that annoys the dog into barking, and give them the "get loud" command while I do it, then praise the dog for barking. Once you have the barking on cue, then start with your "quiet" command. Say your command(repeatedly, if necessary), then as soon as they're quiet immediately start praising them for being quiet.

 

[johny111]

@imagebeastmarkbeast I wasn't asking how to train a dog not to bark, I know how to and have successfully done so with my current dog as per my post. My question was whether expectations around barking should differ depending on breed.