Breeder has committed theft?

[sue782]

Hi.

I was buying from a large poodle breeder however cancelled the transaction at 7 weeks (poodle age) when 3 seperate vets frowned upon her desexing her puppies at 8 weeks, instead of the vet recommended 12 months for large poodles.

The breeder got personally offended, and has now gone dead silent on me every time I ask her for a refund (backed by Australia consumer law).

I have a horrible feeling she has stolen my money.

I am about to begin leghal proceedings although its going to cost me as much as the money for the poodle.

My question is, what do you think is happening in the breeders mind for her to now cease contact when she used to reply often, and what are your recommend next legal steps to ensure I do get every legal cent of my money back?

(this is not a scam as there is so so much content of her and her business online and on facebook, going back 8 years)

 

[kurat]

@sue782 Did you sign a contract when you sent the money? Did you know before sending the money the dogs would be fixed at 8 weeks?

 

[donnags1964]

@kurat [sup][sup]^[/sup][/sup] this.

An ethical/reputable breeder would a have spay/neuter agreement clearly outlined in the contact. The buyer should have the opportunity to review context prior to completing purchase of puppy.

I would consider it a big RED flag if the breeder didn’t outline in the contract prior to moving forward with the sale.

 

[chaoticbeliever]

@donnags1964 Honestly, I'd consider it a red flag if a breeder insisted on all their puppies automatically being spayed/neutered. Someone shouldn't be breeding their dogs at all unless they genuinely feel the puppies produced are going to either improve upon the breed or at worst match to the current pinnacle. There is absolutely no need for a breeder to be increasing the population if that isn't the case. There are more than enough poorly bred pups in shelters already.

So why would a breeder want to automatically spay/neuter all of these phenomenal puppies at only 8 weeks? If the parents are high enough quality to be bred, than surely most of the puppies are of high enough quality to be champions themselves and are worthy of passing on their genes (like I get that a runt might happen that doesn't meet the breed standards for height or something, and that pup shouldn't be bred, but the whole litter?).

Only reason I can think of is that it's a BYB and the parents aren't actually of breeding quality.

Edit to add: I am fully supportive of those who invest in high quality breeding stock in their efforts of producing the next generation of high quality animals! I am not specifically saying AKC/UKC conformation animals (or the Australian equivalent in this case). My GSD comes from working lines and due to not having a sloped back would place poorly in most general conformation shows (outside of those specifically meant for working lines). Instead her parents were champions in obedience and IPO. She is still, IMO an improvement/pinnacle of the breed. The lack of a sloped back is healthier, she has no hip dysplasia in her pedigree going back 5 generations, she has a great temperament and intelligence. The lines she comes from still meet breed standards they are just bred to look like GSDs did back in 1925 (which I personally consider a vast improvement since I prioritize health and function over modern trends; unfortunately in the general confo classes judges don't seem to share this opinion, she meets all the written breed requirements with flying colors, but they'll always place a slope back above her). So I am in no way claiming that confo championships are the be all end all of what constitutes the "pinnacle of the breed".

https://preview.redd.it/e3qt57kx9wv...bp&s=998743bb3a8ad6ab91f42d11a55ea4acc969890e

 

[joymatt]

@chaoticbeliever i’m sure it’s so people can’t use their (i’m assuming) high quality purebreds to make doodles. the doodle epidemic is getting out of hand and people who have no breeding background will likely use purebreds to make first gen doodles that they’ll sell prob 1500-3500 per pup depending on what they decide to breed with. i’ve been seeing a concerning amount of new doodle combos that include belgian malinois and there was a listingng for a tibetan mastiff x toy poodle mix. i think the breeder is trying to preserve the bloodline they created and not give backyard breeders any opening to use their bloodline to create mixed breeds

 

[donnags1964]

@joymatt Yes- the doodle epidemic is getting out of control, but that’s not the main reason why ethical breeders have spay/neuter contacts.

In a litter of 8, the breeder might get lucky with 2 show/breed worthy pups. The rest will be amazing pets but not quite breed worthy. Those pet dogs will eventually be required to be spay/neutered and live an amazing life as a pet.

 

[joymatt]

@donnags1964 i’m just talking about this breeder specifically since they breed poodles

 

[chaoticbeliever]

@donnags1964 I fully understand a spay/neuter contract for if the pup isn't show quality. I'm specifically reacting to the concept of automatically spay/neutering at only 8 weeks.

And Idk my experience with my mom breeding GSDs and someone else I know that breeds Bichons, nearly every single one of their pups ended up champions (a few runts did not grow large enough to meet the breed standard, and a few were too goofy to show themselves properly, and were sold on as pets) and many went on to be grand champions (usually before the age of 3). All the breeding stock were grand champions. Breeding was her entire career, she produced dogs that showed and won at Westminster.

When my mom bred GSDs she went for obedience championships in addition to confo.

Maybe my experience is the exception though.

 

[chaoticbeliever]

@joymatt But what if someone wanted to show and breed purebreds? This breeder is against others doing that with pups from her line?

 

[joymatt]

@chaoticbeliever i’m pretty sure that would be in a contract and if the breeder doesn’t want other people to continue their line they dont have to let them there’s always gonna be other breeders with lines that are just as good or better. i don’t agree with pediatric spay/neuter but i can understand why some breeders would rather do it young esp when it’s one of the most popular breeds that are being mixed

 

[chaoticbeliever]

@joymatt Yeah... I just look at it as a bit weird. Most breeders I know are proud when other breeders desire their lines. Provided it's another ethical breeder whose interested.

I fully understand a spay/neuter contract if the pup isn't breeding quality, or if they have reason to suspect someone's gonna use the pup to produce doodles (but honestly if they suspect that than they probably should just back out of the sale altogether). To me it's just odd to do it pediatric when there are legal ways to ensure the animal is spayed/neutered at a more appropriate age.

 

[donnags1964]

@chaoticbeliever I 100% agree! There are plenty of red flags in this situation.

 

[chaoticbeliever]

@donnags1964 Based on me getting downvoted I think somebody saw themselves in my comment and got offended . Guess they didn't read Rule 8, or think what they're doing somehow isn't the definition of BYB.

 

[andrew742]

@chaoticbeliever Lots of ethical breeders require the pups they produce to be spayed/neutered (although it's not common to say it must be done so early). This is to prevent people from breeding their dogs unethically. Ethical breeders don't contribute to shelter populations, and they don't want the pups they produce contributing to shelter populations either!

 

[sue782]

@kurat No. Under Australian consumer law you dont need a "contract" to buy a "product". I don't need a contract with Coles to buy toilet paper. I spoke to the police and they consider this theft in Australia, they called her and gave her 5 days to return my money because I showed them all details and evidence

 

[chaoticbeliever]

@sue782 You don't need a contract to buy something. Nobody was trying to suggest it wasn't a valid purchase without a contract.

But if when making the purchase you had signed something that said "I understand all puppies will be desexed at 8 weeks old", and then put down a deposit you wouldn't be entitled to a refund. If you were made aware ahead of time and paid anyway that's on you.

So people were hoping to hear you didn't sign a contract that mentioned the desexing at 8 weeks. Since you didn't, you should be able to get a full refund.

For future reference I would avoid any breeders that don't have contracts. No you don't need a contract, but most ethical breeders want one. The contract would have provisions like lets say the pup isn't breeding quality, they might put in there that the puppy get desexed by 2 years old or you are legally required to surrender ownership back to them. That way they still make sure the pup is spayed/neutered without having to do it pediatric.

What her behavior says to me is "I don't want to put in the work to make sure they uphold a spay/neuter contract. It's easier for me to just do a pediatric spay/neuter now, even if that isn't in the animal's best interest." Which... I wouldn't want to buy from a breeder like that. My dog's breeder still sends me an annual email asking how my girl is doing. She's 6 years old.

 

[donnags1964]

@sue782 Did you put down a deposit? How much?

Most breeders might require a deposit but payment is completed in full at time of puppy pickup.

 

[home4good]

@sue782 What is the law on owning desexed dogs where you are at in Australia? What does the contract say about returning any deposit? When/how did you find out about her policy on desexing the dogs, what about other policies she has?

What is she thinking? I would guess that she has been doing this a long time and has procedures she has followed for years and here is this new person coming along trying to tell her how to run her business. You don't say what kind of a tone of voice you used but did say you repeatedly asked for a refund so I would guess it was not friendly. Doesn't say who is right but that is my guess what she is thinking.

 

[sue782]

@home4good I don't think the law cares about "tone of voice". It was professional and over text. The police asked her to return the money in 5 business days or she will be charged with theft :\

 

[chaotik31]

@sue782 Hi , I hit this when I was looking at a standard poodle in Australia too ( not the lost deposit). There are a few breeders who are quite open about it , but not all. Have you suggested that you are happy to have puppy be sterilised by gonad saving spay or vasectomy?
One very good breeder in Victoria I know is quite happy to do this, am sure there are more who would be too.
The poodle mix issues have caused this, often pups will be altered before leaving the breeder in Australia.
In saying all this I ended up with another breed altogether for my puppy as anything that met what I needed was either not for sale or more than 2 years away from on the ground.
The lack of refund is a surprise if they didn’t disclose the desexing requirements before you paid your deposit I would follow up with the breeders state consumer protection agency if they don’t reply to you.