Advice appreciated regarding a puppy contract

[marianabee]

I sought out a reputable German shepherd breeder back in October and signed a contract for a pup before a planned breeding. The breeder I am working with is supplying the stud dog and the female is from another acquaintance of hers. The breeding was successful and a healthy litter of 8 pups was born 12/4/21. I put down a deposit which was accepted the day the pregnancy was confirmed.
The pups have been with their mother as a “foster litter” since the breeder I am working with has the stud, not the female.
As the agreed upon week for me to go pick out my pup approaches, I was contacted by the breeder that the owner of the female “wants to keep the whole litter”. The breeder/stud owner is very angry and upset and we aren’t even sure the other lady can legally do this. The pups have already been microchipped and registered to my breeder (stud owner). She has already gotten her lawyer involved to demand the lady give up the pups as promised.

My questions are:
1. Does the owner of the female have any legal right to keep the puppies?
2. Doesn’t my signed contract and deposit guarantee the puppy I was promised?
3. Since the litter is physically on property of the owner of the female, if it comes down to it does it mean the pups will have to be acquired with police escort or something? My breeder (stud owner) has never had a foster demand to keep a litter after a prior agreement they were for sale.
4. If this goes the legal route in actual court, won’t my acquisition of my puppy be very delayed past the ideal weeks for socialization?

Thank you in advance. This whole thing has been heart breaking. We already bought all of the expensive supplies for this little guy.

 

[definedbytruth]

@marianabee Sounds like you have been scammed because the owner of the stud selling the pups is one of the most unusual things I have ever heard. They have zero rights to the pups. They won’t win in court, unless they had an ironclad legal document. Also, you don’t sell pups before you have them. They could all be dead on arrival or not make it past the 8 weeks. Never pay a deposit for a puppy you haven’t seen and report this person to the kennel club in your country immediately. What association are they registered to? I’ll find contact info for you. I’ve heard of something similar before and it was a 10 year ban. Dog sold and then never handed over.

 

[marianabee]

@definedbytruth I don’t think it’s a scam because she is a 15 years experience reputable breeder with tons of testimonials. She said “I’m never allowing a foster litter again after this.” She is not ghosting me, or disappearing, and offered the deposit back in full if the lady won’t give them up. Doesn’t seem like a scam given all that.

 

[definedbytruth]

@marianabee If you’re getting your money back then just take it and walk away. I’ve realised I didn’t answer your questions.

1. The owner of the female owns the pups. They have full rights to keep them. Really depends on the law where you live and if any money has been exchanged on their side but I’ve honestly never heard of such a thing other than between two breeders from different countries that are in partnership to improve genetic diversity. These people would usually be very close though.
2. Can’t promise a pup you don’t own.
   1. You can’t separate pups from their mother no matter what money has changed hands. The person with the bitch owns the pups.
3. You’re not getting that pup, unless you buy it off the owner.

 

[marianabee]

@definedbytruth It’s just so unfortunate. The owner of the female even posted on her own page a couple weeks ago that all sales were being handled by the owner of the stud. I saved that screenshot in case that is proof of a prior agreement she changed her mind about. I guess it’s unfortunate she has the legal right to change her mind.

 

[definedbytruth]

@marianabee I empathise with your disappointment. The excitement of a pup on the way is amazing. It’s the reason we don’t sell them until their a few weeks old. It’s too risky.

There could be anything going on behind the scenes but it’s probably best for your own sanity to just walk away. Hopefully you won’t have to wait to long for another one.

 

[marianabee]

@definedbytruth So the stud owner bred the bitch 6 years ago as well. The lady who has her now is her “foster”. My breeder may very well legally still own the female…

 

[fallingjerichotm]

@definedbytruth It's not super unheard of but not the most usual setup. I got my Australian Shepherd through the stud owner.

My breeder/stud owner could have recieved a stud fee (price of one puppy) OR second pick of the litter from the owner of the female/dam. My breeder wasn't looking for a new puppy so she was planning to just take the stud fee.

However, I reached out to my breeder to inquire about a litter and while she wasn't breeding any of her females at that time, she was studding my dog's sire and entered into a contract with the dam owner to take second pick of the litter and then sell the pup to me. So at the end of the day, the stud owner still got the equivalent of the stud fee.

The reason this is more unusual is because I sense that stud owners want to breed their dog for the stud fee without the hassle of dealing with clients and interviews, but it worked well for all parties in my case. At the end of the day, I have the benefit of 2 breeders that I can contact for support.

 

[definedbytruth]

@fallingjerichotm Ye, stud for second pick is totally normal. Normally if another breeder has a suitable buyer, they just pass the persons details on. The stud owner selling is so odd to me.

 

[fallingjerichotm]

@definedbytruth Our stud owner had a previous litter with our dam owner 2 years prior our pup so perhaps they were more familiar with eachother working in this setup.

Plus after a lengthy conversation/interview with the stud breeder, we had a lot of similarities/goals for our dogs and I was grateful to have her as a resource/point of contact for future Aussies.

Ultimately I think it depends on the breed and the community of breeders in the region so our situation might differ from other breeders.

 

[definedbytruth]

@fallingjerichotm You’re right, I suppose it does.

 

[frederic12]

@marianabee I'm going to give my input directly (as in my professional experience and the number of years as a breeder) and in order of your questions. I'm going only by the info you have provided and based on my state and countries law because that info was not provided.
1) The puppies belong to the bitches owner. They are all her property.
2) No, because they have no legal right to the puppies without a court deeming it so or a legally binding contract.
3)If the court decided to release the puppies to the people that have provided deposits they would send the police over with writ of replevin. They would have the choice to surrender them or be arrested.
4) Yes. This can go through multiple continuances and could take a court a couple of years to straighten out. Covid has slowed down the court system to a trickle. So yes, depending on the speed of the courts the dogs could be 6 months to 3 years old. But you don't know what type of socialization or training that they're getting from the bitches owner.
I would never have made this agreement. The top poster hit the nail on the head for me. Never ever would I ask for money prior to birth because new born babies die all the time from unforeseen circumstances. At this point I would be demanding my deposit back until they legally get the decision from a court of law. Good Luck.

 

[marianabee]

@frederic12 Thanks for your input. We are looking elsewhere