About Cry It Out: Part 2 The Electric Boogaloo

S

seek2bboldwitness

New member

We're back, back, back again with those citations, infographs, studies- you name it I'm 98% positive I got it! Below is an edited form of the original post fellow mod, /@eront, posted for us this morning.​


As some have noticed, our tone on cry it out has shifted considerably over the past few weeks. We have mostly been educating, but some post removal has occurred where it has crossed the line.

As a sub, we do aim to be on the top of current knowledge, and members of our mod team continually attend seminars and stay on top of studies concerning dog behavior and training. This means adapting our rules and the information we provide according to what is best.
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For clarification, this has been a shift we've been slowly seeing over the last two-ish years. I am personally unsure if it is COVID related or if the rise of Separation Anxiety Specialist such as DeMartini, Dr. Pike and Shikashio and his training partner Moria Hechenleitner.
As a result, this sub officially no longer encourages "cry it out" as a method on an official level and encouraging people to ignore distress cries is now being removed under rule 1.

This method results in learned helplessness and is not in line with LIMA. It does not aid in self-soothing and it does not teach the puppy what to expect. It just creates a negative association with alone time.
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Do note that we will be removing content that is advocating for allowing a puppy who is in distress to remain in distress or that such a thing is normal and should be ignored. This will be done on a case-by-case basis, opting for education over removal unless such a comment is absurdly errant in recommendation.​


That being said, there is a difference between distress and complaining. We're not saying ignoring a couple wimpers that occurs is an issue.
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As requested I am presently working on the wiki and ensuring proper body language and distress signals are visible and easily located within the wiki. Here are some of the sources ahead of time so that if you need them asap they are available:​

Citation time​

The causes of fear and anxiety in working dogs are multifactorial and may include inherited
characteristics that differ between individuals (e.g. Goddard and Beilharz, 1982; 1984a,b), influences
of the environment (Lefebvre et al., 2007), and learned experiences during particular sensitive
periods (Appleby et al., 2002) and throughout life. Fear-related behavior compromises performance,
leads to significant numbers of dogs failing to complete training (e.g., Murphy, 1995; Batt et al.,
2008), early withdrawals from working roles (Caron-Lormier et al., 2016), and can jeopardize dog and
handler safety. Hence, amelioration of fear and anxiety is critical to maintain dogs in working roles
and to ensure their well-being. Although current methods of selection and training are seemingly
effective at producing many dogs which work in a remarkable array of environments, some dogs do
not make the grade, and longevity of service is not always maximized. Programs should strive for
optimal efficiency and they need to continually analyze the value of each component of their
program, seek evidence for its value and explore potential evidence-based improvements. Here we
discuss scientific evidence for methods and strategies which may be of value in reducing the risk of
fear behaviors developing in the working dog population and suggest potentially valuable techniques
and future research to explore the benefit of these approaches. The importance of environmental
influences, learning opportunities, and effects of underlying temperament on the outward
expression of fear and anxiety should not be underestimated. Identification of characteristics which
predict resilience to stress are valuable, both to enable careful breeding for these traits and to
develop predictive tests for puppies and procured animals. It is vitally important to rear animals in
optimal environments and introduce them to a range of stimuli in a positive, controlled, and gradual
way, as these can all help minimize the number of dogs which develop workinhibiting fears. Future
research should explore innovative methods to best measure the relative resilience of dogs to
stressful events. This could include developing optimal exposure protocols to minimize the
development of fear and anxiety, and exploring the influence of social learning and the most
effective elements of stimulus presentation.
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Furthermore, there is growing interest in the evaluation of such behaviours from a welfare perspective (Spruijt et al., 2001; Van der Harst and Sprujit, 2007; Boissy and Lee, 2014; Mellor, 2019). The anticipation of rewarding events is thought to generate acute, positive emotions (Schultz, 2015). Craig (1918) framed anticipation within a pleasure cycle, representing dopamine dependent anticipatory (‘wanting’/positive reward seeking), consummatory (‘liking’) and satiety (learning) phases (Cabanac, 1992, Sapolsky, 1994, Berridge and Kringelbach, 2011; Schultz, 2015; Cook et al., 2016; Csoltova and Mehinagic, 2020). It is perhaps unsurprising therefore, that positive reinforcement training and interaction (Pet Professional Guild, 2022) has resulted in dogs’ attentiveness to owners (Deldalle and Gaunet, 2014), strong dog-owner bonds (de Castro et al., 2019) and better performance at novel training tasks than dogs trained using aversive methods (Rooney and Cowan, 2011); as Cabanac (1992) stated, ‘Pleasant is useful’.

The identification of positive welfare indicators is widely accepted to be a central goal of progressive animal welfare research (Mellor et al., 2020, Csoltova and Mehinagic, 2020, Kremer et al., 2020), and recently updated definitions or concepts of animal welfare and ‘wellbeing’ have placed increased importance on affective states (Duncan, 2006, Fraser, 2008, Mellor et al., 2020). While subjective wellbeing incorporates positive emotions and moods (Paul and Mendl, 2018) psychological wellbeing further encompasses cognitive components such as competence, environmental mastery and positive social interaction (Gagne and Deci, 2005, Špinka and Wemelsfelder, 2011, Clark, 2017). It is proposed that by engaging in appropriate psychological pursuits, subjective wellbeing will be achieved (Ryan and Deci, 2001; Keyes et al., 2002; Meehan and Mench, 2007). The idea that positive emotions could be generated by opportunities to engage in positively challenging tasks has therefore been investigated across species, mostly through the provision of enrichment (Bloomsmith et al., 1991; Hagen and Broom, 2004; Zebunke et al., 2013; Boissy and Lee, 2014; McGowan et al., 2014).
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note a lot of citations relate to welfare, noise phobias as this is a comorbidity of SA, SA, long term effects of stress
  • Ballantyne, K.C., 2018. Separation, Confinement, or Noises: What is Scaring That Dog? Veterinary Clinic of North America: Small Animal Practice, Vol 48(3), pp 367-386
  • Sherman, B. L., & Mills, D. S. (2008). Canine anxieties and phobias: an update on separation anxiety and noise aversions. Veterinary Clinics of North America: Small Animal Practice, 38(5), 1081-1106.
  • Appleby, D., & Pluijmakers, J. (2004b). Separation anxiety in dogs: The function of homeostasis in its development and treatment. Clinical Techniques in Small Animal Practice, 19(4), 205-215
  • Flannigan, G., & Dodman, N. H. (2001). Risk factors and behaviors associated with separation anxiety in dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 219(4), 460-466.
  • McCrave, E.A. (1991). Diagnostic criteria for separation anxiety in the dog. Veterinary Clinics of North America: Small Animal Practice, 21(2), 247-25
    • “In our study, cage confinement seems to increase the “discomfort” response. Behaviors, such as yawning, and lip licking were performed significantly more by caged dogs than dogs allowed to run freely or confined in a room.” Palestrini, C., Minero, M., Cannas, S., Rossi, E., & Frank, D. (2010). Video analysis of dogs with separation-related behaviors. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 124(1), 61-67. doi: 10.1016/j.applanim.2010.01.014
    • “Providing a food-stuffed toy did not have a significant effect on the incidence of separation related behaviors.” Sargisson, R., 2014. Canine separation anxiety: strategies for treatment and management. Veterinary Medicine: Research and Reports 143
  • “If the owner’s absence elicits anxiety, the stimuli that precede the absence will also elicit a degree of anxiety.” Borchelt, P.L., Voith, V.L., 1982. Diagnosis and Treatment of Separation-Related Behavior Problems in Dogs, Symposium on Animal Behavior, 625-635.
  • “Interestingly, the dog that had the highest percentage of successful trials also had the owner who increased the departure duration the slowest and had the greatest number of short departures. The authors concluded that systematic desensitization was the critical component for successful treatment and that counterconditioning and other behavioral advice did not influence the behavioral outcome.” Feuerbacher, E., & Muir, K. (2020) Using Owner Return as a Reinforcer to Operantly Treat Separation-Related Problem Behavior in Dogs. Animals Journal
  • The goal of treatment is to reduce the anxiety associated with the owner’s departure rather than to attempt to treat the symptoms of elimination, destructive behavior, or vocalization directly. This is accomplished by a series of planned departures of gradually increasing duration.” McCrave, E.A. (1991). Diagnostic criteria for separation anxiety in the dog. Veterinary Clinics of North America: Small Animal Practice, 21(2), 247-255
  • http://www.simplybehaviour.com/letting-dog-cry-cause-permanent-damage/
  • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4128501/
  • https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168159196011318
  • https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-43851-x
  • https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168159196011239

Anyways, long story short, we're shifting to reflect the importance of well being of our pups. If you have any further questions or concerns please feel free to send a reply, shoot us a modmail, etc. Give me a moment or three to format this into the wiki with more in-depth writing and it'll be up soon enough. Thanks!​


Edit: aw damn I forgot to link some Susan Garret on crate games. Less cry it out related, more good information. Here you go:

Edit V2, My apologies. I spent most of my day driving and was tired. Here is some info on correlation between human and animal psychology:​

Semi-Unrelated but bonus science article I found that's a fun read about humans and dogs- https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.584037/full
 
@seek2bboldwitness This is so stressful. I have a cross-bred who is made up of 2 very vocal breeds. (Beagle and pug) He barks, whines, stutters, snores, etc constantly. In fact the few times he has been completely silent I panicked thinking something was wrong. I have slept with him by the crate, played crate games, done gradual increases, always give a frozen kong. He even has a special crate pillow and a soothing pet. He still barks for 15-20 minutes when I put him in the crate, hell if I am sitting right next to it, he will bark with the exception of if he is asleep. The vet specifically told me that as long as all of his needs are met (he has been active , peed, pooped, fed and watered) to let him try to cry it out for a reasonable amount of time. I have tried the method of getting him out if he is barking but it has simply only led to regression (louder more intense barks that last longer in the days after) and lack of sleep. I’m not saying that I disagree with this but it really leads to a lot of confusion and stress over what is the right thing and I’m wondering if these methods should be adjusted based on the breed of dog, as some dogs are just more vocal than others.
 
@ardee Agreed. I have a hound dog who is very vocal as well. Honestly, since your vet knows your specific dog, I would listen to them.
 
@seek2bboldwitness I really wish I’d ignored everyone who told me to let pup cry it out. We both cried so much the first 2 nights. The sound he made was heart wrenching. I decided to ignore everyone’s “helpful advice” and sleep downstairs. I lay on the sofa next to his dog bed. I was low down and on his level so he could hear me, see me and smell me. When he woke and started to cry, I reached down and patted him gently. He stopped and we both would fall back to sleep. Within a week of his arrival, I was asleep upstairs in my bed and he was asleep downstairs in his bed. He has no separation anxiety and no sleep issues.
 
@seek2bboldwitness I think casting this issue as black or white is problematic. There is a difference between recommending “crying it out” all night, or advocating for self-soothing under reasonable conditions. If your puppy’s physical needs are met (they are not sick and don’t have to go outside), then leaving them to cry for a bit, slowly increasing the amount of time each night, is a good way to improve self-control and self-soothing abilities. Going to the crate every time they cry is not helpful.

I read both articles you have cited here as evidence, and neither one seems to talk specifically about “crying it out.” The authors of these works mainly discuss why positive reinforcement is a good thing. That is not what’s being argued here - I think we can all agree that a training plan focused on positive reinforcement is a good thing. So if we are talking specifically about attention-seeking behaviors in the face of fear or distress, the Rooney et al. article seems to provide the opposite advice:

“Interaction with dogs during fearful episodes has not been traditionally recommended as it may inadvertently reward and thus reinforce fearful responses. A survey of dog owners in New Zealand found an association between owners comforting their dogs and increased severity and duration of fear behavior over time (Dale et al., 2010). Such associations may not be causal, and the advice against comforting fearful dogs has been challenged because the reinforcement may be of the coping response rather than the fear itself (Casey, 2013).” A closer look at the Casey piece (a blog post) suggests that while comforting your dog may be good in the short-term, in the long-term it may be reinforcing those attention-seeking behaviors.

So - are there scientific articles pointing specifically to self-soothing in dogs and why this is a bad thing? I think if you are planning on removing comments because advice is not scientifically sound, there needs to be more evidence than the blogs and websites of “separation anxiety experts” who are making money off of their claims.

Puppies who are sleep-trained (and left to cry it out) by loving pup parents are not the same as dogs who are yelled at or hit. These puppies are learning self-control and their brains are developing critical inhibitory connections. Sometimes learning self-control is stressful. I would rather see very clear guidelines on what is unacceptable vs. what is reasonable advice in regards to self-soothing.
 
@wmondilla I agree with this here. I'll also add that my background is in ecology and not animal behavior. But my ethology professors always hammered home to be very careful about anthropomorphic tendencies when discussing correlations between human and animal behavior. It's a very easy trap to fall into.
 
@wmondilla Absolutely agree with this. We are trying to put too many hard lines on crate training. I think bottom line it comes down to “know your dog.” You WILL know the difference between distress and demand barking after having your puppy for a week.
 
@wmondilla Hey there,

I would have to reiterate items that will be removed are the more extreme suggestions of ignoring distress in the hopes of self soothing. This is not a black and white topic, nor should it be handled as such.

Re clear guidelines, the wiki should be up and ready to go by mid-day today with examples on distress, when it'd be ok to leave the pup, and what to do if the pup does begin to whine or cry out.
 
@wmondilla No worries, I was able to get the framework in this morning- https://www.reddit.com/r/puppy101/wiki/cratetraining

Once I get done with some clients dogs and tend to some errands I'll have time to add in additional resources. Video clips and sound bites are the hardest bit tbh!

We do agree with majority of what you're saying, the content we're talking about are the clear cut the pet parent has stuffed headphones in or moved the crate across the house instead of actively training or lessen the impact. I do, personally, believe that covid has introduced us to the idea that separation training needs to be done as a part of socialization.
 
@wmondilla
These puppies are learning self-control and their brains are developing critical inhibitory connections.
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The issue is, there's no science backing this and based on everything we know, leaving a puppy in a state of distress is not helping, but risking harm.
 
@eront There is science backing classical behavior theory in dogs, which states that a conditioned response decreases as inhibitory connections grow stronger: here’s just one example. But I agree, there is not clear scientific support for EITHER method. Therefore, we can make NO conclusions on methodologies - but the mods seem to be doing this, regardless.

I’ve noticed you’ve brought up sleep training in children in a negative context when responding to many people’s comments. If we’re going to go there, let’s talk about the data (like this study in Pediatrics) that suggests that babies who were sleep-trained had no more emotional health, behavior or sleep problems at age 6 when compared to non-sleep-trained babies. And sleep training WORKS - babies learn to go to sleep easier at bedtime and stay asleep longer at night.

I am not advocating that this is the only way. But I think it’s wrong to dismiss a technique because the mods have decided that it is “wrong” based on a lack of science.

Again, I am advocating for reasonable sleep training or “cry it out” methods - controlled comforting has NOT been dismissed by science and such advice should not be suppressed on this sub.
 
@wmondilla Nobody is going to remove humane sleep training where cries occur and are responded to. Nobody is going to remove "controlled comforting" seeing that's not what cry it out is. Nobody is going to remove somebody for suggesting to ignore a puppy crying while you take a shower. What is being removed at this point has been people putting ear plugs in and going to another room or specifically advocating people to ignore their dogs until they stop crying to promote self-soothing when we do not have evidence that this builds the skills leading to self-soothing nor that it's done in a humane manner.

What we know currently is that flooding can cause harm. We know that distress can cause harm. These studies above were placed there because they highlight to that position and influence what we currently know.
 
@seek2bboldwitness Dang it changed riiiight after I just got through it mostly. Brought my pup home just a week ago. For the last 4 days I’ve set timers and made sure to take her out every couple hours, but otherwise knowing her needs are met I was letting her cry. In just 4 days she has mostly stopped. Last night she slept like 6 hours straight before her first whine. And she still loves her crate, which is again surprising for a 9 week old pup. So I’m happy to see the science find a less painful way to train the pups, but honestly it seems like it’s working okay.
 
@seek2bboldwitness Thank you for this :)

As someone with a dog who whines a lot. Whether it be because his bedding isn’t perfect or because he’s genuinely panicked, I guess my question is, how long is too long with crying?

For instance, I do separation training over lunch. I do a 30 minute walk and outdoor play where I make sure he potty’s. Then he’s put in his crate with his lunch in a frozen topple. I do this every day. He runs to his crate because he’s so excited to eat his lunch.

Usually, he cries. However he continues to eat his topple and cries even when I come in to check on him every 5-10 minutes.

Does this constitute distressed crying, or letting him “cry it out”? He doesn’t seem distressed to me. I’ve heard him howl when he’s left alone and this crying is different, but it’s still crying. Am I doing damage to him? Should I go back a step?

Are there video/audio clips that show distressed crying vs attention/normal crying.

I’m honestly not trying to be contrarian, I don’t and have never let my dog “cry it out” (or what I thought “cry it out” meant). But now I feel like I don’t fully grasp it.
 
@bleu999 Honestly, if your dog is just chattering, I wouldn't really worry about it.

I'd be mainly on the lookout for cries that are different from your typical communication.
 
@eront This is what’s stressful to me though, what if I’m mistaking the 2. I’m probably wildly over thinking this, but would hate to know that I’m making his separation training worse. Since it’s already been very difficult and we’ve come up with a lot of regression (which I know is normal).

EDIT: but thank you for clarifying all of this for us. It’s helpful :)
 
@bleu999 If you're worried about confusing the 2, can you skip the training session one day and sit with him while he eats? If he still talks while you're sitting there, I would think that would reassure you that it's not distress crying
 
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