Realistically, what will a behaviorist do that my regular vet cannot?

Hey everyone! Ill try to keep this brief because so much has happened with my pups in the past year. But i Would love to hear from people who have had successful experiences after visiting a behaviorist when it's felt like all else has failed.

I have a very... unhappy beagle/foxhound mix named Buccleigh. He's almost 7 and I've had him since he was 6 weeks old after he was found abandoned on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere.

He's always been dog reactive to unfamiliar dogs, but his reactivity was manageable because we've always had huge fenced in yards for him to get his exercise in, and he WAS best friends with my 3.5 year old pitbull (another dumped stray i took in almost 2 years ago), and my 12 year old rat terrier who he had known his entire life and who passed away 9 months ago. Since then his behavior went down hill. I'm sure my older dogs passing has triggered this.

He began starting fights with my pitbull and now they can't be together anymore at all. My pits very friendly with other dogs and loved Buccleigh so much, but buccleigh just began bullying him so badly (he never did before losing our older dog) and the pit developed anxiety from his constant barking. (Since they've been separated my pits been fine).

I've been working with a wonderful r+ trainer who has been coming to my home weekly for the past 3 months.

She said she's never dealt with a dog who has quite the combo of fear, frustration, anxiety and demanding behavior. In short, it takes him over an hour to calm down after coming inside from being outside. Something about walking through doorways has started triggering him. He howls, barks, pants, paces, cries. I can distract him with treats by getting him to do tasks like sit in his bed or grab a toy etc, but if he doesn't get them as fast as he'd like he'll disengage and lose focus (another new behavior as he used to be very treat motivated and focused).

Ive tried trazadone which gave him panic attacks and a month of Prozac which made his behaviors a thousand times worse. Right now for about 2 months he's been on 300mg of gabapentin and 0.5 MG of Xanax twice a day which seemed to help at first but he's backslid a lot the past 2 weeks.

Both my regular vet (who I love and is amazing, she's been so supportive) and my trainer say a behaviorist is the next step, but im looking at a 4 and a half hour drive with him and a 690 dollar initial visit, which I'm more than happy to do and pay if I was more hopeful it could help my poor sad boy. So I'd just love to hear about some of your experiences! (And if you have any other advice I'd love it and I can answer other questions about how we've approached training, thanks!)

@fernando1999 A veterinary behaviorist (a veterinarian who specializes in behavioral medicine), is much more educated and experienced in veterinary medicine. It’s like going to a veterinary oncologist if your pet has cancer. That’s their specialty. General practice vets get little, if any, education in behavior or behavioral drugs. It’s appropriate for them to consult with a specialist.

@dr650adv Thanks! So she would more likely be able to pinpoint exactly what's going on in his brain and which meds and course of training could help him?

I suppose am just looking for reassurance that this is the right thing in his situation and my dog isn't necessarily a lost cause... It's been a stressful year for him and us it's hard to not feel hopeless and I'm afraid that since It feels like I've tried everything else with him short of this that if this doesn't help him that there won't be anything else left to do for him

@fernando1999 Yes, and they’ll take a more thorough history to understand what might help or hurt, and really stay on top of progress. General practice vets might have 4 or 5 go-to behavioral meds, but a VB has knowledge of hundreds of drugs and the subtle differences.

@fernando1999 Yes, when I asked my general vet about putting my girl on Prozac he was like “yeah I can write the script, but I suggest seeing a behavioral vet.” Its the same with humans, you can get Prozac script from a family med doc but they really aren’t specialized in accurately diagnosing and medicating for mental health issues.

@fernando1999 I assume you are talking about a Veterinary behaviorist (=two full degrees, veterinary plus behavior), not just a regular behaviorist (= trainer that specializes in behavior).

Most regular vets do not know very much about behavioral medicine, as it is its own specialty that isn’t included in their education.

A Veterinary behaviorist for example could have warned you that the first few weeks on Prozac might be worse as part of the loading period, and you have to hang in there for 6 to 8 weeks to see if the dog settles into the medication.

If Prozac then really wasn’t a good fit for your dog, they have a whole range of other antidepressants to try, while regular vets often don’t go beyond Prozac.

Behavioral meds are always trial and error, as each individual responds differently, but a VB has much more experience, options, and can guide you through this process quicker.

My VB looks at my dog’s issues from all angles, are there health issues or chronic pain that could contribute? Tweaks supplements, enrichments, exercise regimen for optimal well-being, recommends the best trainers to use, teaches me things like relaxation protocol, which books to read…

There are VBs that work remotely, including some for a little less than what you were quoted.

They are never cheap though, as there are only around 100 worldwide, because their education is so extensive.

@mlprice Yeah I've been reading here lately that Prozac can take up to 8 weeks, but my regular vet was pretty confident t it wasn't right for Buccleigh. She warned me that dogs can be more anxious than usual and it could take several weeks to start working, but when we brought him in after getting progressively worse and worse even after a decrease in dose she said he was acting like "he was on speed" and it was best to stop it.

We have been working on the relaxation protocol almost every day but he struggles to get past "day 4". I've seen a lot of progress with what my trainer had been teaching me with my pitbull, his behavior and manners have improved a lot since starting with her and his anxiety has definitely gotten better so I'm confident in what she's been teaching us is an effective method but with Buccleigh he's just getting worse.

@fernando1999 Yeah, when the reaction to a medication is that extreme, it’s a sign right away that the med didn’t sit well with your dog. Your regular vet guided you better than mine did.

A VB will have more medications to offer. Just that one antidepressant gave your dog a bad reaction doesn’t mean that all will. And VBs do more than just medication.

As your dog’s issue is pretty severe, and given how much it affects your household due to aggression within the pack, it would be really be the best choice to see a VB.

That being said, there is no guarantee it will work, but it will give you the best chances.

@mlprice Out of curiosity, did your VB actually warn you that the first 5-ish(??) weeks of Prozac could be worse? And how so? Asking for a friend (myself)…because I keep getting mixed responses from people like my trainer saying they’ve never heard of this and that Prozac may not be the right med vs the Reddit posts I’ve seen saying the opposite. Our rescue has seemingly gotten more neurotic, reactive, and a little more aggressive (resource guarding, displacement aggression at our senior dog, etc.) now in week 4.5 of Prozac.

@kirbyjade So, we went on Prozac while waiting for our VB appointment, meaning under the guidance of our regular vet. My regular vet, when I told her about the increased anxiety literally said “that does not exist” (facepalm).

It’s literally one of the main side effects listed if you look up the medication, plenty of experience reports online, etc.

Anyway, when we finally had our VB appointment, she said that increased anxiety in the first few weeks can absolutely happen (she also gives me a medication cheat sheet for each med we try, which explains everything a bit simpler than the paper you’d get with the med at the pharmacy).

Now, while initial increased anxiety can happen and does not predict whether the med will work, my VB said that if the reaction is extreme, then she can already tell it’s not going to be a good fit. Like, on Prozac my dog was pretty much paranoid for the first five weeks, and she would have switched us off sooner, my regular vet was obviously useless in that situation.

Since then we have tried Sertraline and currently Effexor, and she still has quite noticeable increased anxiety for the first five weeks, but nothing like that paranoia, and we just stick it through.

That increased anxiety is probably what’s making your dog more reactive. If it doesn’t get better again soon (6 week mark at most), I’d discuss options with your vet.

I don’t think Prozac is all that commonly known for causing disinhibition (not a vet, only from what I’ve gathered so far), so my guess is that the anxiety is making your dog lash out.

Unlike meds like Xanax or Trazadone, which can directly cause disinhibition, so when my dog shows aggression on those, that’s an immediate stop for my VB (did happen to my dog on Xanax).

When we try short acting meds like that, we start with a low dose, I have to fill out a log, and the VB reviews the notes the next day, that’s another way a VB is better, the trials are very systematical and guided.

Given that you are already 4.5 weeks in, I’d try to stick with it for a couple more weeks if you can take it. Unless you can’t keep things safe for you and your other dog of course, if the situation gets actually dangerous, obviously don’t risk anybody getting injured.

I make sure not to schedule anything stressful during the loading period, take things easy, do more enrichments, etc.

I don’t even schedule the trainer during the loading period.

@mlprice Huge thank you for this helpful info! It’s already been a really rough morning for her/us, but I think waiting another week and a half makes sense. It’s really good to know from the VB perspective that this isn’t unexpected.

@fernando1999 Do they mean a behaviorist or a vet behaviorist?

A behaviorist is like a human psychologist. They specialize in understanding dog behavior and reading their body language and developing specialized “therapy” to help the dog overcome whatever psychological issues it may have.

A vet behaviorist is like a human psychiatrist. In addition to training in dog behavior they also have a vet degree and can write prescriptions. There are a ton of different meds available, and traditional vets generally are only familiar with the old ones (Gabapentin, Trazadone, Prozac). If those don’t work for your dog they’re generally out of options. That’s where a vet behaviorist is needed. Although super expensive, if you have health insurance for your dog many will cover both the appointments & medicine.

@mjr88 Yes an actual board certified veterinary behaviorist. My regular vet already put in a referral, and I will have to drive 4 and a half hours as she is the nearest one to where I live.

@fernando1999 We found going to a vet behaviorist absolutely worth the effort and money. She was able to prescribe much more specialized meds than our usual vet, and follows the side effects much more closely. The traditional meds just didn’t work for our pup. Several made her much more reactive and the vet behaviorist immediately had us stop.

The one we see only requires an in person visit once a year, and all appointments in between are done via video. Maybe the one your vet referred you to will do the same?

@mjr88 Yes I got the price sheet, and theyve got a similar way of doing things. He's reacted so badly to a few other medications before so I hadn't considered that there are actually many other options outside of the ones that I've heard of. Thank you!

@fernando1999 I did this, including the 5 hour drive. Totally worth it. She was a whiz at meds and even helped me balance out some of his lupus med interactions in addition to trying out new head meds my primary vet wasn't comfortable with. She gave me some insights into his behavior, and his warning signs that I was struggling to see despite being a dog trainer with good body language skills. She set me up with a trainer who helped me really curb my tendency to push my personal dogs too hard during training because I can slide into expecting more from my own dogs and myself than I do from dogs that aren't mine. And she also gave me a big confidence boost that I hadn't messed my dog up by being a terrible person or terrible trainer, that everyone there treats each others' dogs instead of their own because that's extra hard, and that my dog developing serious general anxiety at 18mo was just the time that mental illness in dogs often presents.

I went from stuck at home scared he would bite my partner if I traveled and having to limit visits with family because it was either too much crate time or he was scaring them, which was making me consider euthanasia, to road tripping successfully with him so I could at least go places, to leaving him with partner for a trip, to recently having a friend try to let him out for us during a long day away (he was too scared to actually go out, but he didn't chomp her either!).

For dogs who are extra, like yours and mine, vet behaviorists have the extra expertise to make progress anyway.

@kittyc Thank you sooo much this was an answer I was hoping to hear!

@fernando1999 The other thing that helped us that I can't recommend enough is Kathy Kawalec's Brilliant Partners Academy. She's doing some cutting edge stuff with coregulation and attachment parenting as applied to dogs. She presents it in a sorta hippy-dippy way but it's got good science backing it up and it really helps you have a more trusting and less transactional relationship with your dog. I would only do one of these at a time, but once you get your pup medicated right and have made some progress it's absolutely worth looking into.

@fernando1999 A veterinary behaviorist is to a vet what a psychiatrist is to a family doctor. Sometimes you just need a little extra help

@fernando1999 We took my dog to a vet behaviorist in addition to an R+ trainer and it was worth every penny. The initial visit was expensive but the follow-ups are infrequent and less expensive, and the meds are not so expensive. I know it’s a pain but my dog is like a different dog in the best way. Everything seems so much easier for him (& the humans involved) now that his bad feelings are more under control. The VB had some reasoning for not starting him on Prozac and doing something different, and she was very knowledgeable about the different types of medicines available. You could try to find a local vet who will try other meds with you but in my experience, this option worked quickly and extremely well.