X-Post: Inconsistent Reactive Biting

[aedun]

I am reaching out to my fellow Redditors in desperate need of help with my doggo, we call him Big Boy.

Approximately 1 year ago we saw posts on social media of a stray dog roaming our general area for about 10 days. He eventually made our neighborhood his "territory" but wouldn't come within 100 yards of anyone. Most everyone in our 'hood tried to feed/water him and get him caught but no success. However, after 3 days of gentle coaxing, I finally got him to come to me and as soon as I gave him a good petting, he trusted humans again.... showing affection to any and all people that were around. We already had 2 dogs and 1 cat but him and I immediately had a deeply rooted connection.

I'll pass through the early days fairly quickly but my wife and I agreed to foster Big Boy, while I was very open to adopting him. He was well behaved, getting along great with our kids and other animals, his biggest issues being "manner" related such as jumping or gentle hand biting. We have a good trainer locally who works with foster dogs so we hired her for a hefty sum and did a week of full-board training. His manners improved drastically and those issues resolved.

However, in the last approximately 6-months, biting has become an issue. When a delivery driver or guest comes to our house, he runs to the window and barks in an aggressive-sounding manner. He also tries to get through the door in a way that makes us worry that he would bite someone if let out. He has had 3 actual biting incidents with friends of my kids. All 3 incidents were either Level 2 or Level 3 bites and his demeaner seems to be protective. When he interacts with other people off of our property, he does not seem to have this protective/aggressive demeanor about him. If we kennel him when someone arrives, he stays calm and once everyone has settled into a seat, he can be let out and has no behavioral issues whatsoever. He has never had this aggression with anyone in our family but he is becoming a risk when people (delivery driver, friend or other) come to our house unannounced, which we obviously cannot control.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I am willing to do literally anything to improve his behavior but I have very serious concerns about the risk he poses to the kids who come to my house regularly and my wife's patience with the situation is running out. Any books, videos, trainers or suggestions are very welcomely appreciated!

 

[ashleysgm]

@aedun Am I understanding correctly that he’s already bitten 3 kids? If so, that seems kind of dire. Have you consulted a behaviorist?

 

[aedun]

@ashleysgm You are correct and no, I have not consulted a behavioralist. Here is a short recap of the 3 incidents:

First: my 11 year old son had a friend coming over so I had him on leash with his Herm Sprenger collar on (I apologize if that is frowned upon, it was recommended by our trainer so I was following her guidance). When the friend arrive, my son dropped something and I lost attention to the leash. He put the kiddos arm in his mouth and chomped but did not leave a lasting mark or break the skin.

2nd: my daughter's friend came by to return some clothes. She rang the doorbell which started the chaos of dogs barking. My daughter cracked the door to grab the clothes and he stuck his head in the gap and nipped her hip.

3rd: my daughter had friends over so we had him in the bedroom with us. When my wife went to get something, he wiggled out and ran into the kitchen where the girls were. They panicked and he nipped one girl on the tush. This one was described by my daughter as having broken the skin but I didn't look at it for obvious reasons.

 

[ashleysgm]

@aedun Yikes. I think you need to take this aggression problem very seriously. Those bites do not sound totally minor to me. There is obviously the problem of a bite from a physical/medical perspective, but there’s also the real possibility of psychological trauma for these kids. There is also potential for expensive legal consequences for your family. Until you sort it out, I would do whatever it takes to make it impossible for the dog to harm any visitors/children.

 

[aedun]

@ashleysgm Completely agree. After the first two incidents (close together), we instituted some controls that seemed to work well for several months until the recent 3rd incident. Ultimately though, all 3 could have been avoided with better execution by us humans involved. Ultimately though, without action to correct the behavior, we are simply treating a symptom.

Someone below mentioned 2-layer safety and I have already spoken with my wife about muzzle-training so that we can have that 2nd layer until we can work with a proper trainer.

 

[gema]

@aedun One more thing to think about is muzzle training. While this isn’t a fix to the problem, it’s a great tool to have especially for a dog with a bite history (and frankly for any dog). Look for a basket muzzle (this can be worn for longer periods of time once the dog is trained and acclimatized to it compared to an occlusion muzzle), make sure it fits well (doesn’t pinch his cheeks, has enough pant room, doesn’t push into his eyes, etc), and train him to feel comfortable in it. There’s a Facebook group called “Muzzle Up Pup” that has great support and resources surrounding muzzle fit and training.

 

[aedun]

@gema This is a wonderful idea and not something I had thought about much. It seems like a great safety measure to have as we get the behavior itself corrected! Thank you.

 

[guardedbyhim2]

@aedun muzzle train your dog and this will be good enough management for the time being. keep your dog either on a leash in the home or muzzle it. supervise it around the kids, regardless of if he sees them as “family”. the biting being a recent development may evolve into biting those he knows and isn’t predictable

• management will be your best friend. find a behavioralist with vetted expertise with high risk/bite risk dogs. find a private trainer and do several lessons. a board and train of one week is likely not enough for this behavior to cease
• you do not mention the dogs breed. is this on purpose? is it a supermutt? how big is this dog? a smaller dog biting is not as intense of a concern (though still a big concern) as a 60+lb dog biting children (better ability to kill if it decides to)

 

[aedun]

@guardedbyhim2 Thank you for this. I have spent some hours today reading up on muzzle-training and I think this seems like a viable option to fill the gap.

Do you have any suggestions on finding a reputable behavioralist? I searched the IAABC website and can only find 1 within 1.5 hours of me and her practice focuses on equine services.

I did not mention the dog's breed because I am not sure. He appears to be at least 50% lab and the other 50% is something as big or bigger. I would have guessed Great Dane but his tale is more fluffy. Here is a short clip of him howling at the monthly tornado siren tests:

https://imgur.com/a/qiJ2g34

 

[guardedbyhim2]

@aedun good luck. happy to hear you chose to muzzle train

i unfortunately do not have personal experience as my dog’s reactivity is not biting, more so caterwauling out of fear when other dogs start barking at him.. i do know that behavioralists are few and far in between depending on your town/city though and you may have to travel or board him to get a proper and in-depth eval

50% lab and assume 50% supermutt then. labs are not known for biting the way yours is, most labs are fairly docile as far as dogs go. i’m assuming some other breed he’s mixed with may be driving his biting, such as out of defense or perceived threat, or otherwise just a drive to bite more. i’d look into countering prey drive on the off chance he may he seeing these children as some sort of prey

 

[donica]

@aedun This can happen that when you use aversive methods (ie painful like e-c@llars, pr*ngs) dogs can increase in their aggressive tendencies.

The process can go like this. You get a dog that is fearful/anxious with some issues (but not major aggression). The owner takes the dog and goes to a trainer or board and train that suggests you “take charge!” or “be a leader” or they know “k9s”. Then the trainer hides warning signals or shuts down a dog with a painful methods and teaches you how to do that too.

Some dogs are so scared they never bite again but they are typically uncomfortable and hiding their feelings, but these are the “winner” dogs. Then there are the other dogs who learn to be more aggressive to defend themselves.

Inside the dog still feels the same, and frequently worse because now when they see scary things it also hurts somewhere. The dog gets in trouble for saying it’s scared or mad by barking or growling. Feedback loop gradually makes the dog more aggressive with less and less warning and the owners feel like they’ve been trying everything since “experts” gave them terrible advice. Trainer blames owners for not being insert whatever complaint. Don’t give you your money back and treat it like you’re the problem, not their antiquated methods.

You need to start from a position of safety always for training. Muzzle training takes time, don’t rush it but get started. In the meantime, your children do not open the door or interact with their friends until your dog is in the crate. The dog always goes into the crate prior to the door opening for any stranger and stays in the crate for the duration of the visit. The dog is not loose in the house with any strangers ever. (Mine isn’t allowed to see strangers in the house either!) You use a 2 barrier method, for example muzzled in a room with the door shut.

If you can block off the door completely to the dog, I would choose that option. Do not have the kids put the dog into the crate. That’s an adults only step.

You really need a different trainer that works specifically with aggressive dogs (not just any dog) and uses updated methods of lima. (Least invasive minimal aversive.) Certifications and behaviorists are a good place to start. As well as a solid vet check for doggy health issues.

Don’t do another board and train. Most dogs can tell the difference between a kennel and a home. You need the dog to be safe in your care, at your home, not in the kennel environment.

 

[aedun]

@donica I love the idea of 2-barrier method while we sort through these issues. If we had instituted this earlier, all but the first bite incident would have been avoided. The other 2 happened, in part, because the human in charge didn't maintain control of the situation and muzzle-training would help account for our errors.

The earlier part of your comments make sense as well. Big Boy gets excited when we bring out the Herm Sprenger because his trainer associated with fun/going somewhere, but I can see how it could spiral the other direction if not careful.

 

[donica]

@aedun Honestly, a lot of stuff with an aggressive dog isn’t intuitive at all.

I personally have had great success with my dog by only using treats, good management, and the occasional no. I did have to physically move her more than once in emergencies, but that’s about it. Muzzles and medication for the win!

Getting to know all the doggy aggression signs (stiff body, hard eyes, ect) was very helpful for me. And not accidentally removing any of her warnings like never punish growls or other obvious signs.