UPDATE: my 8-9 mo old ACD puppy is becoming increasingly aggressive

pt_barnum

New member
Hey all. A while back I had posted here requesting some advice regarding my deaf ACD puppy and his increasingly aggressive behavior with us both in and out of the house. I just wanted to post a quick update of how he is doing and what we have done with him!

In my previous post (sorry, I deleted it so can't link it), I stated we had been using an e collar and prong at the advice of our trainer. We noticed that our dog was clearly displaying discomfort and that we thought the aggression was stemming from these training methods. Our trainer insisted we just had to buckle down and be even more harsh, which we didnt feel right about in the first place. When we did what she recommended, the situation just continued to get worse and I could tell it was going to lead us to a very dangerous and unsafe situation for both us and our dog.

So we did the only thing we could think of: we fired our trainer and removed all negative re-enforcement training from our arsenal. We put him back on a harness only, started paying attention to his triggers and needs more carefully, and started fully instituting positive-only training and interactions.

I AM SO GLAD WE LISTENED TO OUR GUT.

Within days he did almost a complete 180. Happier, more relaxed. Listening better than ever. Less biting, less acting out. Better walks, better interactions, better relationship with our dog. By the end of the second week (and making sure we were on the right track with our new positive only trainer), he is practically a brand new dog. He loves to play with us, we can hold him, kiss him, snuggle him and he listens 90% of the time. When he does get into those overwhelmed moods (our old trainer told us he was just misbehaving, when in reality he was overwhelmed and over threshold), we simply redirect with a toy or a different more calming activity. It's been almost a month now and his personality has fully blossomed and we have even been able to walk him with our other dog (which we were unable to do previously). I am so glad we listened to ourselves and what our dog was telling us rather than the poor advice from the trainer we thought we could trust.

Of course we still have hard days, moments where he doesn't listen or he is more difficult to manage. But instead of forcing him to do things, we can listen to what he is telling us, what HE needs, and give that to him and it has made a world of difference. I still feel guilty for going against what I knew was right in the first place and putting him under so much stress. We damaged the trust that he had in us, but we are now slowly building it back and I am so happy. I just wanted to share some positive progress with you all and say thank you again to anyone who shared advice.
 
@pt_barnum LOVE this update, and so glad it's going well. I wish more trainers would understand that your relationship with your dog should be just that: a relationship, with good communication and mutual respect! Please post a photo of the good boi when you can!
 
@pt_barnum Glad you're seeing improvement.

Honestly, I've had a trainer recommend a prong collar to me and I just noped out of there immediately, as it shows utmost lack of knowledge about the breed.

They are difficult semi wild dogs that have been bred to take a kick from 1000-2000lbs bull and come back harder and with a vengeance. Force just can't work on a breed like ACD.

They can be very problematic, but you just have to go with cooperation, forcing anything won't get you anywhere with them.
 
@dobrotolubiye Our trainer had 30+ years experience with working dogs (with many currently living on farms herding livestock) including innumerable Heelers and the prong collar he recommended after going on a few walks with us quickly did the trick teaching ours to walk on a lead properly. This was after a year of trying every other recommended collar, harness and lead in the book with supplemental classes and personal trainers. Never got into a battle of wills even on day one. That was just lead training and never had to resort (and we wouldn't have) using those collars for anything else. Of course not all Heelers are going to be the same as their response to training methods will vary, so wouldn't write your experience off as a lack of knowledge about the breed if that was the only thing you disagreed with your trainer on.
 
@arabellex I think part of our issue is our dog is deaf and simply just did not understand what we were asking of him. He also startles more easily than other dogs might due to the lack of hearing, and the methods we were using were scaring him, not helping him communicate with us
 
@arabellex I think there's a pretty significant difference between "We used our prong collar to offer consistent correction in one problematic area after bonding with our dog for a year and building trust through various other trainings" and "Your deaf puppy must be coerced into obedience (likely) long before they've fully grown to trust you"

Basically, negative reinforcement is fine, Fear is not.

And if a trainer isn't helping you build that foundational relationship first and just wants you to jump into things with painful corrections, fear is the only thing you're working with and that trainer should fuck off.
 
@tv191 Adding a prong collar is not negative reinforcement, it’s positive punishment and it’s certainly NOT fine in a formal training plan. It’s a completely unnecessary, lazy tool for dealing with any type of fear/anxiety/frustration/etc behavior. I would be careful advocating for aversive tools in any context as they are completely unnecessary in the face of all the mountains of knowledge we have on behavior modification.
 
@cowboys73 Totally agreed. "Positive" in training properly mean "to add to", like a "positive" number. It doesn't mean "nice feelings" like in "positive" psychology. That said as long as it's not confusing I would also just say things colloquially even if it's not technically correct...

I think the commonly used aversive training methods are a product of history from an era that humans had less knowledge about animals and training. (As to why trainers often use them I have a theory regarding the incentive structure but I won't bore you here with it.) The harder part is the behavior modification on the human handlers who always did things one way and particularly if it seemed to have worked for them. Moreover, particularly for people without a so-called "growth mindset", it's difficult to admit mistakes or prior ignorance and opt for changes. A lot of our relationships with our pets I feel is a reflection of our relationships with ourselves.
 
@arabellex Just proves they could have been more open to the very breeds they worked with. Huge issue when training. Shocked more trainers don’t take breeds into consideration.
 
@dobrotolubiye THIS is TRULY my experience and I thank you for being honest. I adore ACDs. I have had some harder herding breeds for almost 6 decades. My ACDs live to please and work. I have two Eurasian doves ( wild birds) who they found and alerted me to. They are great with the smallest chick ( rare poultry breeder), keep complete order on the barnyard with various species. Somehow know where and when 27 breeds of chickens are supposed to be at all times. They have protected baby goats that aren’t their own from coyotes. Love cats. My one boy literally gave his life for me. That said, I would NEVER recommend this breed for 99.9% of he population. They are absolutely jewels for the right owner, but sadly some people don’t realize they aren’t for everyone. EDIT. I had to include this. These dogs were bred to take a kick from the cattle you are speaking of. These dogs are seriously in tuned to their owner( pick the person they love, have LONG memories, hold grudges)
I am always amazed how some trainers are so incredibly unable of breed type when using training methods. A look on my face can make my dogs put their ears back in sorrow, “Oops what is wrong:(
 
@pt_barnum Yay! I know aversives would be a nightmare for my fear reactive dog, and glad I avoided some trainers that probably would have used them. He still has issues but the amount of trust he has in us after being with us after 8 months is good and seems to continue to grow. Though he’s still weary when we have to do medical stuff like checking for hotspots 😭
 
@pt_barnum I remember your post!

SO GLAD you've found a new way with your dog that works for everyone. Aversive training IMO just teaches a dog to be afraid/dislike anyone or anything surrounding the delivery of that correction. In limited circumstances, like to be weary of poisonous snakes, it's a great tool because that's exactly what you want. I've also had success using an electrified mat to stop getting on the furniture. (But for a dog that is overly fearful, I wouldn't use a mat at the risk of them overgeneralizing).

But aggression in a dog is how the animal shows they feel the need to defend themselves. Learning their triggers and resolving that tension with either environmental shaping or positive counter conditioning when they're in a headspace to listen really is the way through.
 
@pt_barnum Thank you for sharing this! We at some point also had a trainer who put a prong collar on our boy. The way he screamed and looked at us imploringly when he first tried it was heart-breaking, even though he did immediately walk better. I also felt guilty this happened, and I went back to the trainer and said, no more prong, do you have any other way to train? The trainer relented, but the new method was still somewhat punishment-based (involving an air can and leash pops) and didn't quite work. We didn't go back to the rest of the sessions package we already paid for (they didn't issue refunds), and decided that we'll be the ones learning about training to train our boy.

Now, my boy walks pretty well and is generally well-behaved, trained on purely-positive (by rewards at the heel position, and clarifying the concepts of heel and pivot through "bench work" -- if anyone of you is curious, look it up). More importantly, he's a happy boy, friendly with people and dogs, and have no reactivity. I always wondered if the fact we stuck to positive-only methods was a factor that he turned out so well. I mean, while I have no proof that punishment-based methods would do damage, it doesn't seem far-fetched that if our boy experienced pain often, his world-view would be more negative. It is also logical that some methods could fix one thing but create new weaknesses or even problems elsewhere, and I wonder if punishments are like this.
 
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