Transitioning to BAT 2.0 for a very frustrated greeter?

[bootsandjeans]

Edit: wanted to mention he is a 22 (almost 2 years old!!!) month old standard Australian Shepherd.

I started reading Grisha Stewart’s book on BAT 2.0 and would like to give it a try.

Our Aussie goes from 0 to 100 pretty fast. He’s solidified the LAT method and always looks at me. But if I’m not fast enough he immediately is barking his head off and causing a whole scene. Or if we’re actively trying to walk forward and moving away from the other dog(s), he’s still barking at the air even though nothing is in front of us. He just has a lot to say! When I watch him do this I just see a dog that just can’t contain himself whatsoever. He demand barks at me for the treats and whines and sometimes jumps at me. Kind of like a “hurry up woman i’m about to lose it ok nvm i’m losing it!!!!”

I just really want to conquer those big feelings in him somehow so he learns to cope a little better. Yes he knows dogs = treats but he still stays super hyper about it.

I’ve been reading into BAT but I am wondering how the transition works from LAT/LAD. Or would just love to hear about your success stories!

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@bootsandjeans BAT was amazing for my frustrated greeter!

As he aged, my dog definitely transitioned from dog friendly to dog selective (I can elaborate if you want to know more) and his reactivity transformed with him. It became more habit based, and frustration based than excitement based. He wasn’t well socialized, so I’m sure there was a little bit of uncertainty too.

I chose BAT because I wanted to start with the end in mind. I wanted to start with a dog who could make his own choices without my input, and that’s where BAT starts.

For me, the two biggest takeaways from the book were to start wayyy farther away, and to put the treats away.

When I was using treats, my dog was so focused on the treats he wasn’t able to process the other dog, which led to big reactions if the other dog got too close, and didn’t lead to much progress.

When I put the treats away, I really had to focus on using distance. So my dog was able to hold his emotions in at 20 ft if there was a treat in his face, but we had to go to like 300 ft when we started BAT setups. At that distance, he was more interested in the environment than the other dog.

The first two sessions we made almost no progress, but on the third session I had the dogs next to each other without greeting, and that’s just being self taught from the book.

The other piece of the puzzle is the find times for your dog to meet and play with other dogs. In my experience, scarcity brings excitement, so if he gets to play with and exist with other dogs regularly, that can help make it less exciting.

I loved using BAT as a method to introduce two dogs, so you can practice calm before playing together.

 

[bootsandjeans]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Thank you so much for the input!!

The idea of putting treats away is still foreign to me, coming from a place where I had give lots of treats!!! I understand why based on BAT, but it’s definitely gonna take me awhile to get used to. Our dog is used to taking treats and we sure are used to giving them!

Granted I haven’t finished reading the book yet, but picturing our guy sniffing his environment with no treats instead of reacting to the dog in the distance is risky for me. But that’s probably why with BAT you’d have to start extremely far, I assume.

Did you use a dog park as your set up? With the right distance, does your dog actually stay interested in their environment versus the other dog(s) in the distance?

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@bootsandjeans Without treats, you have to watch your dog’s behavior very closely! That’s how you see the little cues that mean he might react, and it allows you to step in before he does. You have to pay very close attention, and you learn when he’s going to self regulate vs escalate. It was a great “course” on dog behavior!

You can definitely start in an empty field, and just practice letting your dog sniff and decompress without treats or a distraction, and see how that goes. Like, what do your walks look like? For me, they are like 90% sniffy, and 10% recall/focus and treats, so we were in a good place to do set ups without treats, but if your dog isn’t there yet, that might be a good place to start.

Yeah, it’s hard to imagine! You want to find a distance where your dog can look at the other dog, and disengage on his own, without any input from you. I really didn’t think it was possible, but once I did my first set up, I realized I had never actually give my dog that much space from his triggers. Irl, he doesn’t notice dogs 300 feet away. They either get closer, and he noticed them then, or they get farther away, and he doesn’t care. The real learning happens when they disengage on their own.

I used a friends dog for my first set up, and then I used all the dogs I could find. I think I used two or three friends dogs, I used to walk dogs in Rover, so I texted a couple of my ex clients and I did that, I went on my cities Reddit page, and when someone said they were looking to practice neutrality with their dog, I reached out. The best thing I did was go on rover tho. I paid people to walk their own dog in a structured manner, and I used their dog as the helper dog for mine. I paid the normal 30 minute rate for a 20 minute BAT session.

It’s amazing to watch your reactive pup look up and notice another dog, and then go back to sniffing, and yes, it happens. We would generally move slowly, so he’s seeing new things and doesn’t get bored with one spot.

Also, putting away the treats is when the learning happens, but that doesn’t mean you can’t ever use treats. Treats are great for surprise situations and management, and rewarding behaviors like recall or sit. I’m definitely pro treats!! It’s just that they make it more difficult for the dog to process his environment because the treats are so exciting!

 

[bootsandjeans]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Wonderful! Thank you for such great insight. Using Rover.. GENIUS clap. I’m so glad it worked out for you!

I definitely will give BAT a try. I want to have full faith that my dog can do it. As of this moment I have my own doubts but he surprises me every day so I’m willing to give it a shot. Our walks are difficult only because we live in a townhome community with lots of dogs, so I am always on a strict lookout because sometimes a dog can come out nowhere in the far corners! Our trainer even said it was definitely harder where we lived but doable training wise.

So with that said I’d probably say my dog has never actually had the chance to have as much distance from other dogs either, other than when we go to a park and he’s MUCH less reactive with dogs in the distance there, where we play fetch in a big field with lots of space.

I think what got me to look into BAT in the first place was our dog was always focused on our treats. He knew seeing dogs = chicken breast so he demand barks at me or jumps on my treat bag to get some. And as I said, if I was .1 seconds too slow he reacts. I realized then that not much learning was happening anymore and it was only frustrating both of us.

I hope to see him look at a dog far away and go back to sniffing. I may take your advice and start with an empty field with our long lead and see what he does. If he does see a dog in the distance and goes back to sniffing, I can’t imagine not treating and praising him for that but I know i’ll have to do it!

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@bootsandjeans I think you get it!!! I’m excited to see how it works for you!!

For me, I didn’t see much progress until our third session with the same dog, so don’t give up hope! If after five sessions with the same dog you aren’t seeing improvement, maybe think about switching something up, but it takes time!

I know what you mean, you want to throw a party when he does something right! It was definitely hard to break that habit.

I think it helps to remember that sniffing is SO beneficial for them, and really makes them feel good. It’s not as exciting as a treat party, but that doesn’t mean it’s not great! If he chooses to go back to sniffing, that means he’s rewarding himself!

You are trying to train a dog who makes good choices, and can remain calm, and that’s what you are doing! I love to hype my dog up and get him all excited, but he can’t live like that 24/7. Allowing him to self reward with the environment helps him deescalate.

 

[bootsandjeans]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Thank you, wish me luck!

If he is not sniffing and is focused on his environment/staring at something, does this mean we are too close?

And also, how did you find people on Rover to help you out? Did you just message a couple and tell them what you were looking to do? I have a dog walker that comes but she doesn't have any dogs of her own currently.

And you're totally right about hyping him up. I had to do that a lot when he was going through his fear period, but now he wants me to be his hype woman all the time lmao.

 

[monk58]

@bootsandjeans Yes this is where I am with my frustrated greeter. I think it is a really good idea.

My trainer had me doing a modified version of BAT from the beginning along side engage and disengage... she very very much encouraged me to let him watch (sighthound... he looks!) and wait wait until the mark and reward. We didn't get too hung up on the treats part.. I use them but he is not highly treat motivated so it has never progressed to a game or kind of misuse with him.

I only intervened if he was clearly going over threshold

It was quite nerve wracking at first!

It has really helped... she encourages calm from me and very much a watch and wait no leash pressure... let my dog make choices... normalise seeing other dogs

We spend a lot of our time drifting

However we are kind of stuck at the moment with his threshold not reducing. While he recovers faster still he struggles in busier environments and with close passing

I am going to get my trainer for another block and see if she wants to do things a little differently, more BAT or more resilience approaches. It is possible we are where the set ups would be helpful and the dog leaving... then coming back for calm might be the step... not sure... or me goign forward when he is calm (dog is thething he loves!)

However he can do this with calm dogs and dogs he knows it is the holding back that causes the over threshold... I don't quite see how to integrate all these different techniques clearly in his brain!

Will see and report back to the sub!

Good luck OP

Will be interested to follow your experience!

 

[bootsandjeans]

@monk58 Thank you! I'm glad it's going well for you.

Would love to hear about your updates. I can see us running into that problem too.

The watch and wait is going to be a major learning curve from me, considering I have come from a place where I immediately intervene/break his focus if he's fixated for more than 3 seconds.

Guess we're both gonna learn together!

 

[lia1234]

@bootsandjeans I love the BAT methods! I don’t do it exactly like the book because I don’t know people with calm dogs to use, but also because I’ve started to just use his long line to let him exist and be a dog. We use a 30ft leash so if his pace is right it’s like he’s off leash If he’s using the long line, he can sniff whatever, eat the grass, go through the bushes, etc. (as opposed to his “short” leash which is still 12 feet lol but he use that for more structured walks on the sidewalk). We only use it in big, quiet areas that are not overstimulating but we do still see other dogs once in a while. THIS is what I have found to be the real behavioral adjustment. Because of the long leash length he is able to actively make the decision to cover distance to come back to me, without me putting pressure on the leash or saying anything at all) for a treat scatter when he sees the other dog.

Daily use of the long line paired with scatters (instead of just hand feeding treats one at a time) has been great. With that and his new meds he is actually getting to a point that he can see the dog, scatter, and GO BACK TO SNIFFING instead of continuing to be concerned about the dog (as long as it is a decent distance away).

I think even if you don’t do it by the book, it is still therapy for them.

Edit: I wanted to add that I know treats aren’t part of traditional BAT. But for us I’ve found it to be super helpful and necessary. My dog is a border collie/ACD mix and predictability has been huge for him. Him knowing that he will get a scatter when he comes back to me has helped a lot, because that’s what he do EVERY time he sees a dog regardless of leash length. Also, @dogminded on Instagram has some cool stories up right now about leash length impacting dogs’ gait.

 

[bootsandjeans]

@lia1234 Love this for you guys! I’m glad BAT in combination with treat scatters are a huge success. As I mentioned to another person above, I’m SO used to giving our Aussie treats because that’s all he knows. He has it down pat:

sees dog
anxiously looks to me
gets chicken breast
repeats process
.. but, still continues to get antsy and worked up and will still bark and lose his mind because either the other dog is getting closer (we live in a townhome community with lots of dogs) or I’m not moving fast enough.

It’s almost a game to him. He’s used to the treats and we’re used to giving them.

I’m excited to attempt BAT with the use of our long lead. I hope we have a success story like yours, but it’s comforting to know you’re using treats as needed too.

 

[lia1234]

@bootsandjeans I understand them turning it into a pattern game that it’s not suppose to be.. scatters really helped us a lot with this if you want to try that too! My dog used to frantically look between me and the dog but scatters allow him to do something that feels good to him. I think it’s more intrinsically rewarding. Good luck!

 

[failte]

@bootsandjeans first of all, good on you for taking such big steps to help your pup!

personally, i’ve never loved BAT for frustration (as opposed to fear) reactivity. i find it punishing, in the literal learning theory sense. that said, it’s worth giving it a try and if you find improvement without increased frustration, do it! long line use for frustrated greeters has always been beneficial in my professional experience, independent of using BAT, and even just the LAT method with more freedom/room to move and make choices.

also, the setups can be very time consuming/difficulty to find the right natural scenario to work off of, and i find progress is very slow.

i know folks hate to hear it, but finding a good trainer who can develop an individualized plan for you and your pup even for a few sessions is probably less “cost” than the many hours you’ll have to put in yourself with self-led BAT 2.0 training.

 

[bootsandjeans]

@failte Thank you so much for your honesty!

I love him to pieces. I just really want to help him feel calm. He’s also on Buspar which was originally for his nose phobia/fear period he went through a couple months back.
We actually do have a great trainer who has come to our house twice and helped us in which basically is the LAT/LAD method. We’ve done this for almost a year now. Since my dog’s recent spike in reactivity (age? hormones? season??? lol) we’ve been in contact again. I just can’t figure out a good way to reach a sense of calm. Don’t get me wrong he’s made great progress! Our Aussie is soooo good at looking at a dog in the distance and looking to me. He used to not even do that. But he just gets so antsy and loud in between I’m trying to figure out what else I can do. I try to create more distance but even when I do that, he’s still barking his head off.

If only I knew what he was saying!

 

[failte]

@bootsandjeans i know that frustration!

one additional thought is if you feel like he’s so quick to jump from 0 to 100 and can’t recover well post-reaction (especially alongside other concerns outside of reactivity) and can’t calm down, a med change/experimentation may be in order as a conduit to faster progress. every dog is different — as is each veterinarian and what they’re comfortable prescribing — but i have personally seen many amazing success stories with fluoxetine, which is also indicated for noise phobia/generalized anxiety/difficulty settling. i even had to use it in my own dog — an aussie! — for a short time with really amazing success (who was also fear reactive, noise sensitive). that’s not to say that’s the only medication option, but like with people, sometimes modifying the med can make everything feel so much easier.

 

[bootsandjeans]

@failte Our vet behaviorist (who is amazing and out of state, and one of the better ones out of the 3 in our whole state!!) wasn't sold on starting him on other medications. I was very open to it, but with his problem at the time (the noise phobia) she wanted to stick to Buspar which specifically targets anxiety. On our follow up visit recently she still wanted to stick to the Buspar as she knew already he's not fear reactive, and even moreso now that he's overcome his noise phobias by 98%. SO proud of him for that but dang the leash frustration is still a killer! Lol.

She did recommend l-theanine, which I just bought last night (Anxitane) and will give that a go!