Too many bites - what do we do now

[laurenalexylee]

TL;DR We are feeling stuck on what to do about our 6 yo, 20 lb herding dog mix with now 6 level 3 bites. Rehoming isn’t an option, we could possibly keep her for up to another year but that no longer feels safe or manageable either, is BE the route?

Please be kind, we already feel like we failed here.

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We adopted our pup when she was 2 yo in March 2020 (were searching to adopt well before pandemic, just happened to be the timing). There weren’t many details about her but they thought she was a rat terrier or chihuahua mix, said she was good with other dogs, though we saw some signs of possible reactivity/fear during our trial adoption, no other issues we could tell. We are first-time dog owners and were originally looking for a dog park/hiking buddy/take anywhere dog, so suffice to say we’ve learned a lot of lessons.

2020: Turned out she was indeed reactive to other dogs. Read a bunch of books and started taking some classes on R+ CC and DS. Because it was the pandemic, no one was coming into our house; anyone she met outside in our yard, she generally warmed up to ok with some cheese. Super smart and easy to train all obedience, but she’d clearly missed out on socialization and anything new she would often consider suspect until proven otherwise.

2021: Pandemic eased and we started having people over more often (before all this we loved hosting parties & guests), started seeing her doing some level 1-2 bite behavior of lunging and nipping new people. Dialed back all social gatherings and put protocols in place for intros. But then we were on a hike (she was on leash) when our friend was getting something out of her backpack on the ground and our dog lunged unprovoked at her face, leaving a puncture that needed a couple stitches. Maybe dog was guarding my husband, since she also guards her crate and high value treats? Started fluoxetine & muzzle training.

2022: Made the pup’s world pretty small to manage her space while doing R+ training, mostly BAT and emotion regulation, admittedly not focused enough on resource guarding and close encounters with people. Progress was slow but happening; friends and family would remark to us how far she’d come since we got her. One bite incident though, which in retrospect can see how all the triggers led up to it and we should have had the muzzle on (another strike against us, she’s so sensitive that we never got her totally comfortable in muzzle, so didn’t use it enough). She snapped at my grandpa’s hand (and broke skin) when he held her head for too long at a family gathering (she was leashed but we weren’t fast enough).

2023: Thought we’d made significant progress and that it would be the year to open her world up more. Quickly fell to pieces with two occasions of level 3 hand bites when new people came over to our house and didn’t perfectly follow our instructions on giving her space. Both quick snaps but had punctures, not just scrapes. We backslid into management as she’s def more wary with new people, and most don’t understand how fast her switch can flip. Vet visits have deteriorated into a nightmare. Also finally did a DNA test and found out she’s mostly cattle dog and border collie.

2024: Bit my husband’s dad, someone she loves and knows well, while he was giving her belly rubs. Level 3 on his hand, pretty bad bruising too. Again a quick snap with no other warning signs and this time she held on a little as he drew his hand away. Also reacted against me when she was in my lap and I leaned in the wrong direction, scraped my hand.

Despite our efforts, we let her practice this behavior too much--it’s gotten worse and less predictable. We just can’t see a situation where we can give her a rich life and the training she needs. We can’t upend our own lives much more than we already have. With these last bites, we no longer trust her even with circle of people she loves. We are probably also going to have a kid in a year, so there’s a true end date when even having her in the house would become untenable.

We reached back out to the rescue we got her from and they said they can’t help us or rehome her because of their insurance policy on bite history. We can tell they’re pretty disappointed in us for not reaching out earlier or doing training with aversives when R+ proved to not be working.

What feels so difficult is that our day-to-day routine with her is manageable and she is otherwise the cutest, snuggliest, wiggly playful girl, has fear but isn’t out for blood, and because she’s only 20 lb she is so much easier to control and “get away” with things that bigger dogs can't. Made it too easy to put off truly dealing with her issues. We need to find a veterinary behaviorist for an assessment, right? It feels so sad that BE is on the table now. I guess we’re just looking for some reassurance that this is ultimately the responsible thing to do now that we’re in this situation. Or open to any other ideas.

Just reading this sub has brought us solace to know we’re not alone, so thank you.

 

[hammer118928]

@laurenalexylee Hi OP, first of all, I’m sorry that you’re dealing with this - it’s obvious you love your dog very much and have put a lot of effort and time into helping your dog as best as you can. And you’re right, rehoming isn’t an option here.

You didn’t fail. Some dogs are wired in a way that isn’t compatible with living with human families - putting yourself in your dogs shoes, for her to bite family members she knows/loves in addition to how easily she feels like she “has” to bite, life must be a horribly anxiety driven experience. That’s also not your fault, or hers. She’s not a bad dog, and you’ve tried very hard to be a good guardian.

If I were you, I would meet with a behaviourist and, following their assessment, have a real conversation about BE or what life might look like with a dog that you know has the capacity to bite without much warning.

 

[laurenalexylee]

@hammer118928 Thank you so much - your quick response was exactly what we needed to hear on Saturday.

 

[jok]

@laurenalexylee It sounds like youve put in 200% on your girl, I would definitely be looking at BE and getting a full assessment done. Any dog who bites without warning or escalation behaviour prior to the bite is a scary dog. You've done amazing to get as much time for her as you can.

My vet describes reactivity like cancer, sometimes it's treatable with intense, stressful training... ending in remission and a full lifetime, sometimes it can be improved enough to be liveable with for a while and sometimes it's not possible to treat it well enough to save the dog. I wouldn't blame you for your dog needing to be put down because of cancer and this is not your fault either. Reactivity is unfair. You can do everything right, and it sounds like you have given this sweet girl everything possible and you may still lose her to the disease.

When my boy was at his spiciest( hes a giant breed who has thankfully settled with age and training- and a whole butt tonne of luck) we had several discussions about what his life might look like/what we had to give up. Our vet told us that our lives are worth living too, its ok if you don't have anything more to give or if the cost to you and your family is too high for you to keep her with you.

You gave a dog years of love and safety that otherwise would have only had fear from this world, if it is time to say goodbye then it is time, I am sure she trusts you to make the call that is in her best interest.

 

[laurenalexylee]

@jok That comparison to cancer is a really helpful way to think about it. Very helpful reframe! Appreciate your response so much and I'm so glad your hard work paid off with your pup!

 

[jok]

@laurenalexylee Im glad to help my boy was worth every moment of spice he gave us, but I cant take the credit for him improving, we were so so lucky that he was treatable and that most of his fear based behaviour was bought on by a less than stellar start and thus fixable... hes still very much a work in progress but well, so am I haha.

I hope you have more good days than bad with your doggo.

 

[malaps]

@laurenalexylee We opted for BE in December. Last count was three level three bites, and more lower level bites. We did so much training and modified the triggers but it just wasn’t enough. I knew there would be a moment when I let my guard down and the next bite would be worse. I spoke with our vet, our trainer and the humane society. We opted for in home BE with a vet that came to our house. We gave our dog his last best week and final day. He was surrounded by love and family as he finally found his peace. After, I joined the facebook group Losing Lulu that helps a process emotions after BE.

 

[laurenalexylee]

@malaps Thank you for sharing your story. Must have been so hard.

 

[patriotkat]

@laurenalexylee Yes, a veterinary behaviorist would be a good next step. There may be options other than Prozac, they may diagnose your dog differently than a primary care veterinarian based on what they see, and they will come up with a tailored management/behavior modification plan. They can also help you in your decision making as to how much progress to expect (or not) and options. In the meantime, definitely muzzle her whenever around any strangers, including family, so there’s no more bite risks between now and then.

For what it’s worth, you’ve been doing a lot, more than most owners would do, don’t feel like a failure. Some dogs need help beyond “training” alone and some are hardwired in such a way only the most extensively managed life is possible and then it’s up to you to decide if that management is a good quality of life for both of you. And yes, your quality of life matters too in the equation, not just the dog’s.

 

[ajs_]

@laurenalexylee I'm sorry you are going through this, and I can relate. I had to BE my 2 year old German Shepherd mix two weeks ago and it was the hardest decision I ever made. She was a rescue from a backyard breeder and began having seizures at age 3 months. I managed that, but at about a year old she became reactive on leash. Then resource guarding and snapping and even attacking other dogs who got in her "space". No more daycare or dog parks. Then she attacked a neighbor's dog and almost killed him. Final straw was when she started growling at me- then tried to bite me several times. I worked with 3 trainers including a dog behaviorist. We tried trazadone (did absolutely nothing). As a single woman, I could not control her, could not rehome her, and frankly as much as I loved her, I was afraid of her. It left me with only one option.

You say your dog is getting worse and less predictable, and you no longer trust her. You may be having a child. I think it's time. She's bitten several people- how bad do the bites have to be before you make this decision? I know it's hard. My dog was also fun and adorable 95% of the time. But that other 5% she was dangerous and scary.

My vet told me I didn't fail her. Possibly her seizures at a young age were part of it. We also don't know anything about her parents since she was a rescue from a dirt bag breeder. We'll never know, but I could not risk another dog's or person's safety. That's my story. I still miss her and cry for her. But I know I did the right thing. Big hugs to you and your family.

 

[laurenalexylee]

@ajs_ Thank you for your response and for sharing your story! "She's bitten several people- how bad do the bites have to be before you make this decision?" This is exactly the thought that's been going through our heads frankly for some time already but the past month has really confirmed it for us.

 

[citfield]

@laurenalexylee It sounds like a couple of things: first, does she have pain anywhere? There may be an old injury that crops up and increases sensitivity. Nerve or skeletal pain isn't always obvious and dogs instinctively mask pain.
Also, People and other dogs in general love to push past the comfort level and force small dogs because they can. That gives rise to a lot of reactivity, what you hear people say, "He thinks he's a big dog." She may have come with this trauma and coped as long as she could. Cattle dog and Border Collie give more intensity.
Finally, watch your emotional regulation around her/him. Dogs are incredibly attuned to our emotions and perceived anger might be a trigger. (This last is just a guess.)
Please go to aggressivedog.com and see if you can get some guidance for your little dog. They have a large number of qualified people and information that can help.

 

[laurenalexylee]

@citfield Yeah great consideration about the dog being in pain. It seems pretty unlikely because she's been in great health otherwise from the vet, plenty of energy and appetite, and it's almost like Mr. Jekyll/Dr. Hyde with her and these incidents. Moments afterward she'll still come up and want love/pets/attention like nothing had happened. That's why we've suspected it could be about resource guarding because it's so often about people's proximity to my husband.

She came from a high kill shelter in small town Texas and we really don't know much else about the first 2 years of her life but we have a feeling she may have lived in a fair amount of fear. You're spot on that she's very sensitive to emotion and that was something we worked on a lot--remaining calm and confident ourselves to not let our tenseness travel down the leash, but also help her learn to calm herself down. Especially before she got on fluoxetine, she had a lot more anxious energy or would get worked up (even happy energy) and then get overwhelmed and react, so we were able to control for that part ok.

Thanks for the tip about aggressivedog.com - will check it out!

 

[danderson247]

@laurenalexylee I am a bit late but I think you can keep your dog. Your dog will learn to live with a basket muzzle on. They can eat and drink with it. Might be a bit hard but that if trained properly it can be a mental stimulation. Muzzle train and leave the muzzle longer and longer. Til you almost never remove it.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@laurenalexylee It might be a good idea when you have guests over to crate your dog or put her in another space where she is separate. I know it sucks to not have the friendly family dog that loves everyone. I have a reactive dog as well with a bite history, I can’t trust him and I can’t trust other people will follow my directions. when I have family or friends I put him in the crate and will give him trazodone and gabapentin to relax him. Cry’s for a little, but will stop eventually.

 

[laurenalexylee]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Thanks! Yes she's crate trained and we have a baby gate, and often put her away when people come over, especially for repairmen etc. We kept trying to balance that with some interaction though, knowing that the less interaction she got, the less progress she'd make. (Should have used muzzle, though. That's one of the bigger regrets we have.) But we're definitely going to keep her separate from now on.

You're so right that a huge part of the equation is trusting other people to follow our instructions. Too many times I've told people "just toss her the treat" and then they go to hand feed her and pet her head.... c'mon people! We told you she has bitten before!