Titling an older male? How much? Wise to consider breeding with him or not?

[rockhopper72]

Hello! Sorry if this post is a bit messy, english isn’t my mother tongue and the situation is a bit odd so hard to explain. I’ve got some questions about what kind of titling a male needs to be considered ethical enough to breed with him. Also, is it even wise to consider breeding with him at some point or am I delusional and should just give up? (I'm from France in case it might help in any ways)

Basically I’ve got a 7yo male purebred sheltie, both parents are titled + health tested. He hasn’t done much, no fault of his own. I got him when I was 14 and it wasn’t possible for me to do sports or shows with him. Now he’s scheduled to go to his first show in a few months. He’d be able to do 3 total shows right for when he turns about 8. His breeder saw him when he was ~2yo and said he was objectively very good conformation wise and no flaws of course. Obviously if his results are good enough, he’ll be health tested, and if it’s clear, would it be ok to breed with him?

For more info: This dog is just too nice it almost makes me feel bad he hasn't put some pups like him in the world, he’s got one of the best temperament I’ve ever came across, best trainability (very geared toward obedience naturally), and I’ll wait for the judge to speak on his confirmation, but seems to be a very solid contender.

I’ve got two other shelties from the same breeders and have been around the dogs from the breeders a lot when I was younger, we fell out of touch a while ago unfortunately, but he’s some of the best I’ve ever seen for sure.

The breeder was supposed to help me get him ready (showing and all) so she would be able to breed with him when he was younger, except I was not able to go back and see her due to personal unrelated issues.

dog tax pic btw

https://imgur.com/gkhh1eU

 

[christianr_]

@rockhopper72 OP, you probably know this but for the sake of others reading this post who may not -- "health testing" is more than a genetic screening. The phrase you used: "it's clear" is commonly associated with getting a genetic screening panel. But for responsible breeding, it's a lot more. Here's what is needed for Shelties:

https://ofa.org/chic-programs/browse-by-breed/?breed=SS

(again, just clarifying for other people who are reading).

 

[dukedesu]

@rockhopper72 Do figure out the height to make sure he's in standard otherwise you might get DQed at your first show and it would just be a waste of money. Otherwise, there's no problem in showing a 7 year old male and getting a championship. It's not the prime age for dogs, but if they're still in good shape they can win and finish. I'd say you need some kind of championship on him to warrant breeding; that's the standard for my dogs anyway. You could start getting some of the health testing done and have him collected while he's still fairly young as fertility goes down with age. Otherwise, maybe just get a related dog from this dog's breeder and start anew with that dog? She clearly breeds dogs that you like.

 

[rockhopper72]

@dukedesu Thanks a lot for the advices! He's all good height wise, and in great shape/healthy (he sees the vet 2x per year for routines checks). I'll definitely think about getting some health testing now to check out the possibility to have him collected, I wasn't aware it was possible for dogs.

I did think of getting another dog related to him, unfortunately both his parents have been retired a long time ago and there's only one "active" female with the same mom as him, who's most likely not going to have another litter, so doesn't seem like it would be do-able unfortunately.

 

[nobodyuknow]

@rockhopper72 The world will be okay without his pups, don't worry. Here's a caveat. If the breeder says he has no flaws, you need to get honest opinions from other breeders. EVERY dog has faults. They may mean "no disqualifying faults," which is the lowest bar there is and does not connote actual quality. My rescue shepherd has no disqualifying faults, but she is a needle-nosed, coyote-headed, fiddle-fronted girl who has no business in a show ring, perfect for spaying and being my best friend.

Talk to other breeders and get an honest view of what his faults are. Picking a random bitch to breed with just to make puppies is just this side of backyard breeding. You need to take pedigrees into account, and you need to be trying to fix faults. If you don't know what your dog's faults ARE, you may be doubling up on them.

Really do your research. Are you looking to outcross? Or are you going to line-breed? If you're line-breeding, what dog(s) are you line-breeding ON? Look at your dog's siblings and any progeny, and look at the pedigree of the progeny's sire so you can see what led to that particular litter.

It's a lot of homework, but it is worth it. If you don't do the necessary research, you'd just be breeding your boy to put puppies in the world. Keep us posted on what the other breeders say.

 

[rockhopper72]

@nobodyuknow Thank you so much for your comment!

I understand what you meant, I guess what his breeder was saying is that he has no disqualifying faults, I might have not translated it well or not understood it well when she said it. Everyone's comments has made me realized it was going to be much *much* harder than I thought, (and that he's probably not as perfect as I thought too). So I might just give up the idea of putting him up as a stud, I really don't want to be some half-assed backyard breeder.

I think I'll still try to get him out to a few shows for experience and meeting people involved in shelties. If I may ask, how would you go about researching a line? Would it be done only by contacting the breeders? In France we have a website which shows every offsprings a dog has had, show results, pedigrees etc, would researching throught this help? Anything specific you would suggest? I tried to follow his lines, but I feel weird "randomly" contacting a breeder to ask questions about lines, I'd be scared to waste their time.

I'll definitely do an update once I've gotten some professional opinion on him!! Thanks a lot again.

 

[nobodyuknow]

@rockhopper72 There are some breeders in the US who sell puppies as "show quality" if they have no disqualifying faults, so they may have told you exactly that. It's rather dishonest, in my opinion, and I fart in the general direction of those who do this. A breeder once told me, when I asked about a particular dog's faults, "I'd be hard-pressed to name one." I did NOT buy a puppy from her! She was kennel- blind!

Definitely try showing him. It's FUN! To research a line, contact the person you got your dog from and ask them about their pedigree. Ask to see pictures of dogs from that line, go and meet some in person if you can. Put your hands on them, too. Coated breeds are hard to judge without really feeling their bodies.

It's also good to know what faults are common in your breed that are often more or less accepted. Here, Icelandic Sheepdogs, for example, commonly have very sloppy movement. That way you know not to toss out an entire line just because they express that fault. It's also good to know what faults are common that breeders are actively trying to correct. When you breed, you want to have a GOAL for the puppies. What does will your dog ADD to the gene pool? What are you hoping to correct?

I learned a lot from reading the AKC Gazette. I'm not sure if you can get it in France, but there is probably a comparable publication. It had breed columns every issue discussing these kinds of things.

 

[wakalix]

@rockhopper72 First, check in your contract if you are allowed to stud the dog. Then, you will need as many titles as possible to make your dog attractive for breeders. For your dog's behaviour try to reach an organisation to title him for zoothérapie ? Can be a proof of his temperament. Then of course, genetic and health testing.

Having a breeder mentor would be a plus, too.

 

[thecurious]

@rockhopper72 Honestly? I'd pay a handler to try to get him finished quickly (go follow a bunch of breeders in your area and ask them who the top handler for the breed is. There should be a couple of names that you will hear over and over). If you want him to be attractive to other breeders, a sheltie handler will know a lot of those, will be able to do the proper head trimming and show grooming. I'd also reach out to your breed club and ask for mentors (I'd also poke around on FB and see if you can find breeders with similar bloodlines. If they like the bloodline and know how nice the temperaments tend to be, they are more likely to want to use him). Can you post a picture of him stacked? It will be difficult to get an 8 year old without any points finished. Don't be discouraged if he doesn't do well. It's his first show and all breed judges aren't always the most versed in particular breeds. If you want a good critique of conformation, get experienced mentors to go over him and go to speciality shows. I'd run his genetic panel and get his hips and elbows done regardless. If he has fantastic results, great. If he doesn't, well, I'd still show him. You can make connections in the Sheltie world. If you ever want to breed, now is the time to start getting a couple experienced mentors to guide you. Get some show experience, learn how to handle and groom and see which bloodlines you like (there can be a LOT of variation in temperment in the breed. You will learn who has pretty dogs with stable temperments and who doesn't.......).

 

[walkinthewoods]

@thecurious A good handler will tell you if it's hopeless, too!

 

[thecurious]

@walkinthewoods Lol yup! I've had some handlers give very honest feedback on my dogs (which is always appreciated. I don't take it personally. I didn't breed them and I have a LOT to learn about the breed. It's nice having a detailed breakdown of faults so I can go over them again later)

 

[kjcolt]

@thecurious Though OP mentioned that they live in France. Meaning that they would be showing under LOF and FCI rules. The FCI requires that all dogs be exclusively owner handled and ban professional handlers. A child is of course always still allowed to borrow someone else’s dog for juniors competitions/4H, but paying a professional handler to handle your dog for you will get you and your dog disqualified from the show. It’s very much treated as a form of cheating under FCI regulations and is a well enforced rule. As a result, there are no professional handlers in France or really much of Europe.

 

[thecurious]

@kjcolt Huh that is fascinating! I had no idea! thanks for the heads up!

 

[home4good]

@rockhopper72 The order of things I would do for this is:

1. talk to the breeder, see what their advice and support is
2. have health tests done
3. have collected
4. start showing
5. see what happens

If the dog doesn't pass the health tests there isn't any reason to do anything else, and since they are getting up in the years I would get them collected and checked to make sure they can sire a litter. Showing (and associated money pit items with it) would be the last thing needed. You can start training now, that never hurts. I'm not sure how you would do the grooming, yourself or hire someone, but that can be an investment in equipment.

And then you actually get into shows. A few (very few) dogs finish 'quickly' in conformation, and it depends a lot on where you are at and how many other dogs there are showing in the area. The more popular the breed the harder it is and normally the longer it takes. A handler can help but you still have to worry about training, grooming, transportation, and the other logistics of the shows.

Start down the list and see how far you get. And depending on what reception you get with them you may decide to breed without a conformation title.

 

[davecb]

@rockhopper72 Aside from anything else, how tall is he?

I’d figure that out before you do anything else.

He also needs some serious grooming.

 

[rockhopper72]

@davecb Hi! He's 38,5cm so all good, he does look a bit giant on this pic probably because of the angle sorry.

And of course he'll be properly groomed before going on the show ring, since he's been mainly a pet until now I admit I like the "wild gremlin" look.

edit: i'm not sure why i'm being downvoted, by "wild gremlin" i just mean that i don't care about trimming his ear hairs and paws?? not that i don't brush him?? he's brushed multiple times weekly.