Thoughts on e-collar ? (Only on vibration mode) the vet recommended it but I am really reluctant

[grace302015]

My dog is a ACD/ Pitt mix. He’s 10 months old and overall he’s a great dog. Obedient, kind to strangers, kids and other dogs. He’s getting better at not reacting with cats.
I walk him 3 hours / days and train him everyday.

I’ve seen such an improvement since he got here 3 months ago.

Here’s my issue : he’s a rescue. So altho I don’t think he was abused (he doesn’t show any signs) I do believe he had to fend for himself.

At first he was eating EVERYTHING he could find on the floor (glass, plastic, food… etc).
I have taught him to “leave it” and I reward him with a treat everytime which has worked wonders.

But… we live on an island. And island dogs (most of them anyways) have ONE obsession : iguanas. Preferably the ones that have been dead for a few days (which is dangerous and can cause botulism. Lots of dogs around have their back legs paralyzed because of it).

Anyways, so I used to let him off the leash in certain areas but I can’t anymore because he is now looking for dead iguanas and once ran away and came back so fat, we had to make him throw up (he could barely move).

Now I have a very long leash (10 meters) but still… he ate three iguanas in 1 week. The issue is, when he spots one, he jumps and won’t let go.
The first time this week, there were two of us so we managed to make him let go after 10 minutes of wrestling.

Second time, I was alone and had to pick him up with his head facing the ground and shake him lightly until he let go.

The third time : I couldn’t do anything. He swallowed that awfully stinky corpse without even chewing. It was so gross - borderline traumatic as Id hear the bones breaking and I was powerless. And he STANK so bad after. Obviously I had to take him to the vet again to have her make him throw up which he did and thank god that vet was patient because he threw up the whole damn thing and you could still see the intact head of the reptile.

What sucks is that he’s so good when there are no iguanas around. Great recall, etc.
But when that happens, it makes me pay a lot of money, I have to bath and disinfected his coat with apple cider vinegar cause the smell doesn’t go away, I have to disinfect everything (leash, harness etc) and it sa lot of stress.

I don’t want to keep him constantly on a short leash because the long one is part of his training. Next option is leaving this island (which is what we plan on doing anyways) but if you all have some advice please share.

You have to know he’s SO bad when there are iguanas that he once snapped at another dog that approached the corpse of an iguana (whereas my dog isn’t usually ressource guarding at all). It’s like he’s possessed and can’t control himself at all.

 

[danielz]

@grace302015 Definitely a muzzle! Check out the Muzzle Up! Project for great advice on how to positively condition your dog to a muzzle. I’d recommend a basket muzzle with enough room for the dog to pant and drink water. If you’re worried about him looking “scary” in a muzzle there are all sorts of ways you can customize them to look cute (like spray painting the muzzle bright colors, decorative duct taping, etc).

Edit: actually someone here suggested a Jafco muzzle, which would probably be better as it would prevent your dog from licking stuff as well. The drawback is you can’t keep it on as long because he won’t be able to drink through it.

 

[bushido8000]

@grace302015 I would suggest a muzzle, so that he’d be unable to eat the iguanas (yuck!). E-collars, even on vibration mode, are aversive and there’s a very large risk of unintended negative consequences. A muzzle, when the dog is properly conditioned to it (and that is an important step) is not really any different than the dog wearing a harness or the like.

 

[thorn610]

@bushido8000 Yep.

I had an e-collar on my dog so we could train her to not jump the fence, and for a couple.of other things.

We used vibration settings only.

One day, we were inside, and she still had the collar on, and I had the remote iny pocket... I must've accidentally bumped it and it changed settings so when I pressed it...thinking it was still on the vibration settings, she got a massive shock that she literally jumped backwards, off the floor.

I immediately took the collar off of her, and got rid of it. I gave her lots of hugs and kisses. I kept apologising.

We found other ways to stop her from jumping on/over the fence. She's never jumped over, but we didn't want her to start doing it either.

But... e-collars are not a good way to train your dog even with vibration settings.

Never again would I use an e-collar.

Edit: She was our first dog, and didn't know any better. Not that that excuses it. But, after a lot of research, we now know the horrors of using them.
It can really change a dog's attitude for the worst, too. It didn't with our dog, luckily...it could with others.

 

[carlett]

@thorn610 Human error is to blame here not the collar

 

[thorn610]

@carlett I admit that it's my fault because I didn't pay attention after it was in my pocket...but it goes to show that if you're not careful, then things can go wrong with the collar... unexpected things. There's no reason why an e-collar should switch settings just from bumping it.

Also, even with the shock setting, it still shouldn't have made her fly off of the floor the way it did.

 

[ryannate]

@thorn610 No, it's still Human error. You're not supposed to leave an e-collar on your dog unless you're actively using it or planning to. You should not keep it on and basically with no safety if you're not planning to use it, and for a good reason. It's primarily good for recall and refocusing towards you, I take mine off my dog as soon as we get into the house and turn it off.

You shouldn't really need an e-collar in the house unless you're training for something specific that requires it. It was a sudden shock your dog hasn't felt before, that's why she flew off the floor, if a dog hasn't been properly acclimated to the shock at the lowest settings of course it will fly off the floor.

End of the day, this is all human error, nothing to do with the e-collar.

 

[thorn610]

@ryannate Did I say it wasn't human error? I admit fault. I said that. You just wanted to jump in and act like you know more about training my dog than I do. You seem to know how she felt at the time of the shock. Glad you know my dog better. So, how long have you been taking care of my dog?

She's 6 years old, and I haven't had any problems with her besides her being dog reactive on walks (since having issues at a dog daycare.) We don't need one of those collars for her. We realised that after we took it off of her. And that was 5 years ago.

She had it on inside because we were still working on a couple of things with her. But then we found ways to do positive reinforcement, and that seems to work so much better.

So thank you for your holier-than-thou comment.

 

[aeworld]

@carlett Humans error often

 

[jaswds]

@carlett The collar itself is the human error.

 

[carlett]

@jaswds Negative. The collar is not the problem. It’s that people slap it on their dog and don’t bother how to learn to use it.

 

[jaswds]

@carlett It is an aversive tool and this is a problem.

 

[p4m3l4]

@grace302015 They make muzzles that are specifically to prevent dogs from eating stuff. They’re lighter and more comfortable than like a Baskerville muzzle, but a Baskerville muzzle works too. Just make sure to size it big so that it’s comfortable. That’s going to be more effective than an e-collar. The problem with remote collars is that dogs don’t understand them and that means they can be scary, so instead of being a “try it, worst case scenario it won’t work” situation it’s a “try it and worst case scenario your dog becomes reactive and fearful.” You have a non-fearful dog so it’s important to keep him that way.

I did cave to peer pressure with using a remote collar to keep my dog from jumping the fence at the dog park. It just didn’t work. It’s not strong enough to counter a situation where the dog has a high drive. So with a dog super obsessed with dead iguana, the response to a vibrate or shock collar is going to be “wtf is this feeling on my neck? Whatever I have an iguana I’m chewing on.” That’s why a muzzle is more effective.

It may also help to train an emergency recall. This is where you have a specific word that means a really big treat payout where you give a lot of small pieces of a high value treat like rotisserie chicken. Do it 3 times a day for a bit and then you can do it more randomly and sporadically. You can also do it with something like a peanut butter-filled kong if he likes peanut butter, you just want it to be something amazing.

 

[kidwindy001]

@p4m3l4 This. We used an ecollar at one point too. My dog’s main trigger is other dogs and if she was already lunging at another dog, NOTHING was going to stop her. She is in such a high arousal state in those situations that I honestly don’t think she even felt a damn thing when I would zap her with it.

 

[tiernon]

@p4m3l4

really big treat payout where you give a lot of small pieces of a high value treat like rotisserie chicken

Or botulism-free iguana meat

 

[p4m3l4]

@tiernon Lol, that may or may not be legal if OP lives on an island where they’re native.

 

[stykbo]

@grace302015 I would never go back to a vet who recommends aversives. There are so many better ways to stop this behavior. Muzzle training would be my go-to, then a short leash if muzzle doesn’t help.

You not wanting to use a short leash doesn’t matter so much as keeping your dog safe in this situation. You need to control your dog and not doing so is putting his health at risk.

 

[kawaiichristi]

@grace302015 Unless your vet is a veterinary behaviorist (listed at dacvb.org) they aren't a behavior expert. They earned their advanced degree in medical care, not behavior modification. Take their advice like you would take the advice of anyone else generally knowledgeable about dogs--with a grain of salt.

I would work with a trainer to muzzle train him so he's able to pant freely but can't scarf any snacks. Well fitting basket muzzles would let him drink, pant, take treats, and move totally normally. If you condition it right, he will eagerly stick his snout into it and not be bothered by it at all.

You can also work on the behavior from a training perspective, but training will work best when he's not able to get any iguanas. Grabbing them is self reinforcing. Every time he's able to do it you're kind of starting over back at zero teaching him not to.

 

[hobster777]

@grace302015 If you don’t want to use the collar you don’t have to. It’s your dog and your choice. I would get a jafco with no treat hole and see if that helps. He might be able to still lick through the wire cage muzzles.

 

[bee_brian]

@grace302015 You managed to get “leave it” to work inside, you can try to make this work on the iguanas.

1st proof leave it inside, eg (1) put food down (2) say leave it (3) when dog stops looking at food and looks up to you, click and reward.

Then up the challenge - a moving toy, moving food, a person with delicious food running away, a person with favourite toy playing with dog. Kikopup says if your dog can’t leave it from a person running away with a toy, how do you expect them to leave prey.

Then if you can find a dead iguana, have the dog on a short lead and under control and never give him a chance to get too near, start a good distance away so your dog can look at the iguana but look away, and to you, when you say “leave it”. Mark, reward. If he doesn’t look away, move further away until he is able to disengage. When he gets good, move closer. Reward him whenever he chooses to look at you and ignore the iguana body.

This takes a lot of time, you’ll need to use a shorter lead in the meantime so he can’t get near an iguana! As you have realised, each time he gets worse as he is getting reinforced for eating the iguana and you need to ensure your dog can’t be reinforced (ie can’t eat iguanas!) for ignoring you, but gets something really yummy for listening to you.

Using a muzzle without training isn’t really fair I don’t think - but you could use a muzzle and train if you’d prefer until they can be called away from the iguana. Squeezey cheese makes treating through a muzzle easier.

Good luck!