Play between rescue pups is getting increasingly frequent & aggressive. Advice?

[cottonpete]

I recently adopted two dogs, both rescues and both about a year old (as best the vet can guess). One, Jay, is a ~40lbs male husky/shepherd mix. The other, Silent Bob, is an underweight ~45lbs male chocolate lab mix. Actually, I haven't weighed him, but he's probably closer to 50lbs at this point - he's still under weight, but at least his ribs aren't so prominent. I adopted them together ~3mo ago, though they didn't have a relationship beforehand. Both are neutered. I'm fully bought in on positive reinforcement training and have been seeing good, consistent success with that approach in most other areas.

They're good dogs - food motivated and quick to learn. In the last 3 weeks though their play has gotten noticeably more frequent and aggressive.

"Frequent" is one thing. It seems that any time one of them has any nervous energy, anticipation, need to eliminate, etc, their first impulse is to go chew on the other one and things escalate from there. I'm doing my best to redirect that energy into more acceptable outlets, primarily chew toys/bones/etc, but their persistence can be relentless. It originates from both dogs, but maybe from Bob a tiny bit more often. If I put them in thunder shirts, they find it much easier to chill out together. Ultimately, they need to learn more acceptable outlets for this energy, and I would greatly appreciate advice on how to shape that. I don't feel like I've found many good resources on this.

"Aggressive" is another. They've always shared a rough and tumble play style, and while Jay is still holding his own, the dynamic isn't quite as balanced now that Bob's filling out.

Observing them with other dogs at the park, Jay just wants to be chased and will instigate however's needed to get that outcome. With some dogs, it's enough to bow and start running. If that doesn't work, he'll test out increasingly rude behaviors until he gets what he wants or gives up. I'd say that 9 times out of 10 he will correctly judge the other dog's interest and leave them alone if they're not a good match, and for that 10th one I break things up before the humping starts. I don't think Jay's the problem right now, though there's still work to do.

Bob is pretty good with other dogs - he seems happy to chase, and if that momentarily shifts into being chased, that's fine, though he doesn't actively seek it out like his brother. The two issue's I'm actively working on are: (1) not stealing/hoarding balls, and (2) not barking in another dog's face when they've been playing but want a pause or otherwise want to stop while he wants to keep going. (This is especially a problem with smaller dogs. It's not with every interaction, and I pull him away in when it does occur, usually by luring him with a ball or a treat, and by grabbing his harness if all else fails. Advice/suggestions welcome.) In short, Bob exhibits some mild/moderate resource guarding w/ other dogs (but not people), and he's good at escalating play but not deescalating.

But together? They go from 0-MAX instantly. And with Bob's growing size/strength, Jay's on his back on the ground by the time I can break it up. This is not the case with other dogs, though I can see the seeds are there. It's not an out-and-out fight - ears and tails still suggest play, and the only injuries have been mild abrasions - but it's enough to scare other owners at the park into leaving.

I'm guessing there's more than one cause for the recent changes - both dogs are exhibiting increased confidence (a good thing), Bob's improved fitness/energy (also a good thing), and adolescence (unavoidable). Do you have any advice on how best to proceed? At minimum I don't want to make things worse while I look for a trainer/behaviorist to work with...

TL;DR: Two pups that want to be good boys but don't know that means yet. How do I encourage more constructive outlets for their energy? How do I encourage more gentle/acceptable play when play is appropriate or unavoidable?

 

[cristal11]

@cottonpete I haven't personally experienced aggression issues but I've tried educating myself and I research and practice positive training. I have a couple questions and a couple ideas.

How much exercise do your dogs get in a typical day? What kinds of exercise do they get? I distinguish between walks where they heel next to you and walks where they get to sniff and move around you (on leash or off). Then there's also dog parks which can tire a dog out physically but hype them up mentally. Then there's frisbee/ball/toy play with you and finally mental exercise which could be food puzzles or obedience training.
Incorporating 2 complimentary forms of exercise work well for my restlessly energetic pup. If we do the dog park then I try working on impulse control/settling exercises, for example. If we do an environmentally rewarding exercise like sniffing freely on a walk them I'll do some interactive games like fetch/tug to bring the focused back to me.

Could you describe their body language more? It really helps to try your hand at recording who instigates what, how stiff they are, whether they're using big playful movements, which one's on top, where it started, what preceded it, what toys/treats were around. This isn't just useful in getting help but it might also open your eyes to trends you wouldn't notice otherwise.

How's their basic obedience? When they're in this fight mode can you call them back to you or get their attention at all? Can you put them in a sit next to each other and reward them?

Here's my ideas. Without knowing your answers, I'll just give generic suggestions.
First, more exercise is rarely a bad thing. A tired dog is a good dog. I can't stress this enough. The majority of problem behaviors can be lessened/solved by proper exercise and most dogs have a different idea of what a proper amount of time is! Husky/Sheppards/labs were all breed with a job in mind so daily exercise is a must. Your dogs are also in their teenage stages! God bless you for taking on 1yr olds. I just recently adopted one myself and I can see why so many experience issues around this time. Without 2 hrs of exercise a day she would a restless ball of naughtiness and she's just the right height to grab everything off the counters.

After your dogs are properly exercised, you can start teaching 'calmness' around each other. This is an impulse control exercise but you'll be setting yourself for success in the beginning by doing it after they've exercised or otherwise when they're tired. There's so many ways to teach this general idea that I don't really know where to start.
For a single dog, I'd have them on a leash and ignore them. Once they've realized there's nothing for them to do and they lie down, I reward them calmly with food intermittently for as long as they stay calm. With 2 dogs you can use anchors or a second person to keep the dogs separate and reward them for being calm in each other's presence.
You can also work on their down-stay next to each other. If they can't be next to each other, then use leashes/second person/baby gates to keep them at a distance that's workable for them.

Having their basic obedience (stay/recall/leave it) down reliably will help immensely. Train separately, they deserve your full attention.

Additionally, make your dogs earn everything. This will be especially helpful if they begin to fight/get hyped up around doorways, toys, or meal time. I'd work on the skill of working for toys/meals separately to build up that expectation and then try it with both dogs. The goal is for them to be focused on you, because you are the bringer of everything, rather than on each other.

Honestly, I don't know how to teach a dog to play 'gentler'. It's usually a situation of treating the underlying reasons for their aggressive tendencies.
For people who's dogs just don't get along and theres risk of escalation to injury, many have found a balance with crate/rotate systems, as suggested previously. This can be modified to what works with you. Maybe you just use extra tall baby gates or separate rooms. It's not an ideal solution and we want the best for our dogs but happiness can still be achieved.

I hope this helps and you'll be able to wade through the novel I've written! Please ask for clarification on anything I haven't described well.

 

[cottonpete]

@cristal11 Thank you for such a detailed reply.

Exercise: We go for a 30-45 minute jog in the morning, followed by a ~20 minute training session, a 20-30 minute walk in the afternoon, and either a long (> 1 hour) walk or trip to the dog park in the evening. On their walks, I'm not asking them to heel - there's lots of bush-sniffing - but I do require they keep a loose leash.

I think I'm meeting their exercise needs during the week. There could definitely be more, but I'd grade myself a B.

Obedience: Eh, we're making progress on manners but there's a lot of work still to do. Jay picks up on things quicker but can be stubborn about following through, while Bob takes a little longer to figure out the rules of the game and tires out faster. They're really good together during these sessions - they're both entirely focused on me, and they're comfortable hanging out in their crates when I need to work with them individually. We're making progress with stay/recall/leave it, but I wouldn't say they're reliable yet.

I've had good luck capturing calmness. That's probably been the single most effective bit of work we've done.

I need to run for now, but I'll try to answer your other questions as I have time today.

 

[cristal11]

@cottonpete That's a lot of exercise! It seems like it's a minimum of 2 hrs/day which sounds good to me but you'll have to listen to your dogs on whether that's enough. You could try upping that to 4 hrs one day and see if their behavior improves, if they're really tired it might carry into their behavior the next day so you only have to up their exercise a couple times a week.

Let me know for you try any of my suggestions and how they work for you. It might be a matter of building up their obedience, reinforcing calmness, and stopping play before it gets too crazy.

You could try allowing them to only play in certain locations, like outside, if you think they'll at safely but you just want to protect your living room from dognado.

 

[jedi4christ]

@cottonpete You have the option of limiting the opportunities they have to play together and instead have them play individually with you. There are very good trainers out there who actually do not permit their dogs to play with each other and who instead play with the dogs. You can, eventually, use something like stationing - where one dog waits on a platform or a mat for his turn - to work with the dogs separately together.

 

[cottonpete]

@jedi4christ Well, yes of course. Is that what you're recommending? This would entail crating them significantly more than I do now so there are no opportunities to play/roughhouse except with my permission. I'm not sure that's feasible with my lifestyle, and my intuition is there are less drastic options I can try first. Can you elaborate?