Neuter differences?

[shelly48]

TL;DR - those of you with reactive males that were previously intact. Did you notice any differences (positive or negative) post-neuter?

Hey all - I have a 20 month old cattle dog. He has had some dog reactivity that we’ve been managing with a trainer really well.

The good stuff: He actually has his CGC, and does super well when he’s in structure (e.g. in a heel to give him a “job”), and can easily perform well in stores and when walking on busy streets. He does really well at our agility classes (dogs kenneled when not working). He’s off leash trained on an ecollar and goes to day training with our trainer. He does really well with her and the other dogs being neutral and occasionally playing when appropriate time. He passes does off leash with her no issue.

The struggles: He’s not trustworthy off leash with my husband and I if there is a possibility of a dog or bike coming by. We think he has some resource guarding issues with us. He’s much more reactive walking in our neighborhood vs literally anywhere else. He struggles more when he has to make a decision (e.g. Long line on hikes with a muzzle on). Hiking he seems to still struggle even when I try to put him in structure. We’re obviously working on this continually with our trainer as I have hopes for him to one day be my trail running dog once we can safely pass people/dogs on trails with no drama.

We’ve consulted his breeder (she’s also a vet and will be doing the surgery) and have him scheduled for his neuter in the next 3 weeks. I had a lot of anxiety about getting him neutered because it’s irreversible and I worried it would make his reactivity worse without the “confidence” from the testosterone. I trust my breeder’s judgement as she’s had cattle dogs forever and has a strong program. I’d just like to hear any stories from others if they noticed the neuter helped their pups as I’m hoping between that and the training it helps our boy relax a bit.

 

[thrall]

@shelly48 I remember having a conversation a few weeks ago with a behaviorist in the comments & they said it's 50/50 if fixing the dog will resolve the issue or make it worse. They recommend that you try to resolve the behaviour issue prior to fixing.

 

[monk58]

@shelly48 Not in a positive way. But that was kind of to be expected since his reactivity wasn't sexual behaviour or motivation

He lost a little confidence but since he wasn't fear reacting it was not a big impact. he is s a frustrated greeter. He now cringes a bit and pulls back and shoulder dips with dogs he was preciously happy to greet with good body language. It has taken a while to build him up.

I did notice the neutered male dogs stop biting him. I wish their owners would not be so surprised and keep them on a lead if they knwo they are a problem with intact dogs. Mine was always on the lead..

Overall it didn't harm him and for an urban area as a medium sized dog that is fairly gentle (whippet) it has made him safer from neutered male dogs.

I don't regret it and I am glad I put time and thought into it before going ahead. He was not really neutered for his behaviour but because of the behaviour of other dogs. And owners.

I had him assessed and did a 9 month trial with an implant. He was 2 and 9 months when we put the implant in

Honestly his behaviour change other than losing a little confidence was very minimal and no impact on his reactivity. I do see slightly more fear and anxiety in him but can't tell if that is neutering or the impact of his frustration behaviour fading as we continue behaviour training. Chicken and egg really... it was probably there all along.

We can never one hundred percent know what will be the change. I would ask a good behaviours it level trainer to assess.

 

[shelly48]

@monk58 Thank you for sharing. I wonder the same thing. Most of his reactivity is definitely discomfort, idk if I would classify it as fear. He’s been what I call “socially awkward” since he was a baby. He didn’t love spending time with his littermates and mostly sat to the side in puppy socialization. Other dogs make him nervous and he acts big and scary because of it. I expect that won’t go away, but curious if a neuter will increase or decrease intensity of his emotions.

 

[monk58]

@shelly48 Honestly my ones intensity and arousal is just the same. I would say time to mature and a modified version of BAT has helped him control his impulses but the intensity is still there

He can go from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye

 

[hiccup]

@shelly48 If you are looking at it from a purely reactivity perspective, there is no evidence that a neuter will improve reactivity. In fact the body of evidence seems to point in the other direction.

Neutering at a young age also has shown a correlation to increased reactivity and aggression.

 

[shelly48]

@hiccup Yes thank you I’ve read about that, which is why I was asking for folks personal experience since there are few white papers on the topic, and if there are they’re fairly old or biased.

 

[looseink]

@shelly48 Our dog was neutered at 10 months because he was so intense. It definitely took the edge off of his behaviours so he can focus better. He’s 16 months now and his reactivity is more manageable, though it’s an on-going process.

 

[shelly48]

@looseink Thanks for sharing! That’s promising to hear. I’m just hoping it helps redirect him off of the intense focus he can have on other dogs

 

[dr650adv]

@shelly48 There’s often a lowered intensity of reactivity. Enough that can give you a window to train more easily.

 

[shelly48]

@dr650adv Thank you, this is what I’m hoping for. I’m not sure if chemical castration is an option near me to “try it out”. It’s hard to know what will be best for him.

 

[aleigh2639]

@shelly48 I have had working ACDs for 14 years. I have had herding dogs for 60 years.
I have had Dutch, Tervuren, English Shepherd, Rough Collies and GSDs.
Temperament tested dogs for 19 years, 3 states, 4 counties. I hospice/ senior foster small dogs for the last 13 years.
I have a rare poultry farm. And goats ( a pig, by one unaltered ACD found)
I was in Veterinary School ( got a BS in biology) and if you would have asked me this question even 10 years ago, I would have said neuter.
I wish they did partial alterations here. After much research, I personally do NOT think altering completely is worth the risks to long term health.
I am NOT a breeder. I have never been one and will never be one. I had my female ACD altered partially, and will have my other one altered partially at 2 1/2.
I have had two unaltered male ACDs and they are confident dogs without any propensity to roam. They are also working dogs.
I am going to say something you may not like, and I am sorry. ACDs are VERY hard dogs.
They were the only herding dog bred to herd wild cattle through treacherous terrain. Their minds are always on.
BTW, I do have altered male dogs. Male dogs are the most likely to be dumped around 18 months or a little older, and I ended up with 36 dumped on my property in 2010, in 3-4 months. I paid rescues to take most of them. I kept 2. I altered them. While I didn’t see life expectancy changes, I did see, some hip issues.
Again, they were mixed breeds and I can’t say with certainty this was an issue.
I did see MANY dogs at the shelters who were altered and still always aggressive. Dogs had to be altered before adoption at the shelters I volunteered for and many of these dogs were turned in by their owners for aggression and behavior issues and were already altered.
If your boy is a pure ACD, and you can find out anything about his breeders, I would do so. If they were working lines, I would try to find an outlet for his energy. They really don’t “slow down”.
AKC bred dogs from this breed are not as energetic BUT still have a very strong bond with their owner and they live to please their owner.
If you have specific questions you think I can help you with( I have service trained dogs for veterans through the place I foster for) and I have done BASIC obedience training ( I am NOT a professional trainer) for many people throughout the years), I will be glad to help you.

 

[shelly48]

@aleigh2639 Thanks, always helpful to hear from other ACD owners. My dog is not from a working line, he’s a show line dog. I intentionally looked for that knowing that we planned to do sports, but not working a farm. He’s done some herding, doing agility now, hikes/runs and we are chipping our way through trick titles. We do a lot to focus him, and have worked on a good off switch. He’s currently asleep on place next to me while I work after his walk and training this morning. All in all, he’s an amazing dog.

I’m unfamiliar with a partial alteration. Can you say more about that?

 

[aleigh2639]

@shelly48 It keeps the testicles, but he can’t breed.
They do this surgery at some offices in the U.S. and it is VERY prevalent in Europe ( continent, not UK from what I have heard from friends there)
I personally think it should be considered.Testosterone, imho is very useful for dogs.
My female never gained any weight many completely spayed dogs can gain, although she is very active. Female ACDs can get more stern as they age BUT her personality has stayed pretty constant.
I know for a fact this surgery is done in some states. Hip dysplasia is such a huge issue with active dogs, and while I only have personal opinions as to why I think the life expectancy of dogs have declined, I have to wonder.
Again, if there is anything I can offer( and I am hoping the breeder has been helpful, if not, shame) please reach out.

 

[katara]

@shelly48 Its chemical castration. They put a chip inside your dog which halts the production of male hormones for 6 months or 12 months. There are many cons to this method and many just end up neutering their dogs eventually.