Need help with training morals, my head hurts lol

[nc17]

I’m a cross over trainer, kinda. I went from balanced training and after being failed by multiple trainers I transitioned over to R+. For more Detail on this one trainer got my dog attacked in class and blamed me for it, I was questioned and made to feel like a fool for wanting to use a clicker, one trainers idea of getting her dog to be quiet in its crate was to scream and throw shit at the dog and it goes on. I realize now these trainers just sucked regardless of their methods.

I called my self a positive reinforcement trainer till I sat in a class with a strictly R+ trainer. When a dog jumped on her she did absolutely nothing and the dog just stayed there paws on her and she ignored the dog and it was more than happy just stand there. I would turn away from the dog, no knee, no correction but I’d stop the behavior from continuing and then call the dog back me give it a cue for the replacement Behavior. This made me realize I was still using P- and suddenly couldn’t call myself a positive only trainer. I made my whole training circle R+ people and slowly started seeing small issues. It took a while since I own a dog that is extremely sensitive, I could look at him wrong and he’d cower. He thrives on R+ and P-, P+ is too harsh for him and In the beginning correcting him for dog reactivity made it worse. Counter conditioning using the CARE method literally solved all our issues within four months and we still practice but it’s been years without issue. I thought P+ was useless seeing as it never helped my dog and only made things worse.

Wellll lucky me! I adopted a German Shepherd mix with dog aggression, human aggression and an over stimulation problem. I did all the same steps with her as I did my other dogs and she can pass other dogs on leash with out reacting but she still gets stimulated so easy and starts pulling and going crazy over very little things. Woods walks are a nightmare. Our R+ advice was to slowly work our way up to woods walks, getting her good with leash skills else where... this dog will pull on a head halter so hard her head will be turned backward facing me and her body will be still going forward with all her might. Frontal clips do nothing except cause her to limp due to her intense pulling. It’s. Been. Four. Years. After this four years we started her on medication and she was finally able to take treats on walks and she made improvements but they are minor.

I decided to try putting a chain martingale on her to see how she’d react to leash corrections and we went for a woods walk. She did great. One of the best walks we went on. My body didn’t hurt afterwards and she seemed to understand what I was trying to communicate.

So now my whole training world is being turned upside down. I went from a prong advocate, to corrections are evil, to wtf am I even doing anymore.

My whole circle is R+. Everyone I know, everything I’ve fought for. And here I am about to go buy a prong and hid it under a damn bandana. I stopped doing classes a while ago and have had the biggest training identity crisis you could imagine. In class I never had a dog that wasn’t trainable through R+ and P-. I also never had to deal with a dog like the one I adopted.

It hurts since I’d see the post from people claiming R+ doesn’t work on high drive dogs and fought against it. Maybe for the R+ trainer that can put years into a dog it doesn’t matter but I have put so much effort into this dog I feel like I’ve failed her.

I don’t know what to do anymore. I really like the people in my circle but I know they would absolutely hate me if they knew I was considering buying a prong. I feel so conflicted.

I wonder if I just need to keep trying harder with my dog. I wonder what they would do if they owned her. Idk I’d love to read others thoughts on this. Either to ease my mind or if anyone has advice for me to try.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@nc17 The important question for me is always this: am I creating conflict or creating understanding? If the dog is happy and you're getting results, don't worry over quadrants and tools.

 

[mychainsarebroken]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Heard that.

 

[robert111]

@nc17 Prong collars aren't really more aversive than front clip harnesses or head halters, they just look scarier. Dogs pull less on a prong because it's uncomfortable and they don't like it, whereas the other two physically move them around and take away control of their bodies which can make them panic.

You don't necessarily need to use one though if corrections on a martingale work just fine, though you can if you really want to.

I was kinda in the same boat six months ago when I adopted my girl. I was ONLY going to use R+ P-. Well after four months of her killing my wrists and screaming her head off at every dog she saw I started to correct her behavior with leash pops and the last two months have been a lot better. She walks way more calmly and she's learning how to control her excitement, but she isn't ruined and looks very happy and gets lots of yummy rewards. Some dogs don't live to please or just don't "get it" with R+ only, they need to be told what not to do as well.

 

[nc17]

@robert111 The thing that got me thinking was a thread on GSD’s I read a while back, there was someone explaining their situation pretty similar to mine and what helped their dog was communicating what the dog was doing wrong so they could just keep walking.

I hate the haltis and frontal clips at least for my dog. They movement restriction and gate change bothers me to no end.

 

[robert111]

@nc17 Yeah it very strongly depends on the dog. I wouldn't even begin to use anything other than a firm "no" on a cavalier or border collie or my parents' shih tzus, but dogs like GSDs and my multi generation mutt were bred to be really resistant and take a lot. Which is great for protection but not so much for walking down the street lol

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@nc17 Keeper collar, my friend.

I was also instilled on doing 100% positive only until my puppy gave me a good dose of reality. The R+ people tend to have soft dog breeds. They have never had to deal with a dog like the one you adopted either.

 

[nc17]

@imagebeastmarkbeast All people I know own very soft dogs. Even the reactive ones. Again I’d love to see how they’d handle my nut of a dog.

Thank you for the link!

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@nc17 I have one, and I'm very happy with it, though it is the only prong I've ever used. The snap buckle is fabulous, it doesn't come apart like other prongs do so no need for a backup collar, and the size is adjustable, no need to add or remove prongs. I don't see how you could cover both a Herm-Springer style prong and the backup collar with a bandana, really.

I think the stiffness of the nylon might impact the strength of the corrections a touch, that's it for downsides. On a GSD's plush neck it will look like any other collar, if a little oddly positioned.

Edit: I saw your cross post. I totally sympathise with the cognitive dissonance you are struggling with. I went through it myself, and I have seen another young P+ dog trainer go through it when they were handed a GSD and none of the things they had been taught actually applied. That GSD is about to wash out of a guide dog program because she can't get it to stop pulling by any method sh was taught. That is a great shame for the blind person who would have otherwise had an invaluable companion and accessibility tool.

Most people on this sub are 95-99% P+ trainers, but you will find you have a lot more opportunities to reward your dog once the desired behaviour occurs with greater frequency. And if you don't like the prong, if your dog doesn't take to it, that's fine. You can lock it in a drawer and forget about it. But after four years, it's worth a try.

 

[thehallelujahhollerer]

@nc17 The most fanatic R+ person I know has a really, really soft lab. However, because this trainer is absolutely against ever saying the word no or ever telling the poor dog what she shouldn't do, the poor dog is a mess. It works as well as never telling a small child no.

If you only ever say yes, a dog is only going to get half of the information they need. My dog, being his typical serious and responsible German Shepherd self, really needs and wants to know what the parameters are. He is most comfortable knowing both what he should and what he shouldn't be doing. Then he can relax knowing he is the best good boy. He is stressed when he doesn't have a clear picture of what his job is. Saying "do this but don't do that" is what makes him happy.

 

[doks]

@nc17

I called my self a positive reinforcement trainer till I sat in a class with a strictly R+ trainer. When a dog jumped on her she did absolutely nothing and the dog just stayed there paws on her and she ignored the dog and it was more than happy just stand there.

Respectfully, this is one person's view on on R+. There is no 'official' methodology. For instance, in my R+ classes, we would use PREMACK to address jumping on people, and/or redirection. You can't sweep the entire methodology into a category based on one trainer.

There is no such thing as R+ only. Literally doesn't exist. It, by definition, CANNOT exist. All the major trainers advocating for clicker training or R+ always including P-. I mean, extinction by definition is aversive. Anyone who claims to be only R+ is deluded, and/or is communicating poorly.

It hurts since I’d see the post from people claiming R+ doesn’t work on high drive dogs and fought against it.

I think we have to be careful here, because 'drive' also doesn't have a clear definition. IMO, R+ actually works best with high drive dogs with clear motivators because they're easily motivated.

I don’t know what to do anymore. I really like the people in my circle but I know they would absolutely hate me if they knew I was considering buying a prong. I feel so conflicted.

You need new people in your circle. Not one person who is in my circle and prefers to work without added aversives (provided by the handler) has judged my use of the ecollar on Tesla. They saw the work I put in to do things without an aversive, and were just R+ for the humans AND the dogs.

I run my life by a different 'table' for introducing aversives:

• High benefit / high cost = long as decision and I'm doing to kick this decision into lots of lists and cost:benefit judgement calls.
• High benefit / low cost = do it.
• Low benefit / low cost = maybe - becomes a life call.
• Low benefit / low cost = nope.gif.

 

[nc17]

@doks This comment was very helpful thanks I’m not sure how to find new training friends but I’ve been trying

Can you explain this table a little more?

 

[thehallelujahhollerer]

@doks

There is no such thing as R+ only.

There is and it doesn't work. I know someone who does this and fanatically claims that even P- is abuse. Her previous dog was a mess and her newer one (she must be 3 or so now) is a mess. It's very sad for the dogs, but she's so angry and fanatical nobody is brave enough to talk to her about it.

 

[doks]

@thehallelujahhollerer Um, there's not though. If her dog is existing, by definition she is facing aversive events. Perhaps not direct by her owner, but life in general comes with aversive events.

 

[thehallelujahhollerer]

@doks We're talking about training dogs. Training. Dogs. We're literally on the topic of methods used by people to train dogs. So, yes, we're specifically talking about things done directly by people to their dogs to train them and the topic is R+ training.

She uses only R+ and calls anyone who uses anything else abusive. She says that even using the word "no" is abuse. And her dogs are and have always been a mess. And she is very active in a specific training community and trains people to train their dogs that way. She does mean well, though.

edit: It does kind of break my heart. She loves her dogs and is perplexed as to why their training always goes so poorly (yet somehow is quite sure she has all the training answers for everyone else). She gets frustrated and blames the dogs even though it's not their fault. She can't see past her own ideology enough to see her situation for what it is and that she is creating it.

 

[doks]

@thehallelujahhollerer

We're literally on the topic of methods used by people to train dogs. So, yes, we're specifically talking about things done directly by people to their dogs to train them and the topic is R+ training.

My point was, training DOESN'T happen in isolation. It's literally not possible, environmental factors impact your training. When John brings his reactive dog to class, and his dog is freaked out, it's an aversive that directly impacts his training. John directly brought his dog out to training. No, he didn't drop kick his puppy, or withhold reinforcement. But it is impossible for any trainer to isolate all environmental variables that could impact your dog. I don't believe anyone trains in a literal bubble where they can do that unless they never leave the house or something.

My point wasn't that people can isolate their own actions, it was that TRAINING can't happen in isolation.

 

[axolotl]

@nc17 Kudos to you for being honest. Why are you still asking for people to prop up your training methods that didn't work? Just get over it and move on. Btw, the ecollar is just as much of an eye opening experience as a prong is which usually amounts to what you are describing. You got lucky because I wouldn't really expect a martingale to deliver a detectable improvement. Keep going though. If you decide what to do based on your fear of being ridiculed by your positive buddies, that would be failing your dog.

EDIT: Btw, when I first got a GSD with all sorts of problems and went through everything "experts" were telling me to do - they all failed spectacularly and stupidly. And then I began to climb the ladder from using a harness, to a slip (didn't like that one) to a prong, to an ecollar and evolved my views. This stuff really does work. And the result for my dogs is VASTLY more freedom and fun. They get to come with me places badly behaved dogs couldn't. They keep me company on the porch while I'm doing work on the yard, not tied up. It's so much better for everyone involved.

 

[axolotl]

Reading some of your comments later down, I want to add that my GSD would pull on the slip so she was choking herself so disturbingly that I really didn't like it. She pulled my SO into traffic twice, and into falls several times. That's what got her on board with going aversive in the first place. Ecollar was where we ended up, dog was complimented wherever we went, and she had almost total freedom and a better life because of it. I see you're getting a lot of terrible advice in here that sounds like it's going to send you down a long likely ineffective path and I just have to tell you, there's better ways. This stuff is not rocket science. It does not in any way shape or form require you to NOT WALK THE DOG FOR WEEKS.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@nc17 if your alleged friends hate you for wanting a dog you enjoy and can control, are they friends or a controlling cult? My money is on the latter.

Food for thought:

Is it pleasant for your dog to have its head yanked around backwards? To be forced to limp because of a harness? I'm betting no.

Is it pleasant for YOU to spend YEARS on just trying to walk your dog? NOPE.

Could this be avoided with appropriate use of simple, humane, effective, well tested tools? YES.