my dog is 'shutting down' when he has the e collar on

[jesusreigns4ever]

I have been conditioning my dog to the e collar for about a month now. following larry krohns method and everything was going fine until recently he started just shutting down whenever its physically on him. since i've been conditioning it i have been basically putting it on him all the time whenever he's not in the crate. things were going well, using extremely low levels (my martin systems chameleon III collar only has 18 levels and i'm using a 1) I would alternate between a nick with the command or a few nicks after hte command and it always resulted in an excited dog bolting to me or to place tail wagging waiting for the next command. I did'nt USE it for heeling but he'd heel off leash, excited, lots of focus. Now, whenever its physically on him, he just lays down chin on the floor. doesn't want to play. When he does do off leash heeling with it he is nose to th ground, not really sniffing just kind of seems bummed.He will recall and go to place but he will kind of saunter over. I have the feather contacts in it (4 of them) and i dont put it on too tight since the collar itself confirms whether its making contact. I experiemnted with just having it on him with no contacts in and he behaved the same way. I never used it aversively or at high levels. a 1 feels like a 6 on a mini educator and a 2 feels like an 8-9. he's 8 months old. not really sure how to proceed aside from just stopping altogether for a while. has anyone else experienced anything like this?

A few weeks ago video:

Sulky default down that he does whenever its on him:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qFWaw1KnJnQ5T0cP0MvK30gZgqshsmiM

This is from yesterday. watch the change in behavior as soon as i take it off of him.

 

[kakumei]

@jesusreigns4ever 8 months old is a fear period in some dogs. It can manifest in a whole bunch of different ways.

This makes me wonder if it might be pinching him or the collar is defective and burnt him once or twice. You mentioned a mini educator, I don't know if you have one but maybe try using it if you do to see if it's the collar or the potential for the stim that does it.

He could also be "burnt out" and bored with the training. Maybe try, like, a sport or hike or something new with it on and see if it helps.

Also, watching the video he looks like my dog in training mode when she has her collar on. Very focused on you and not wanting to miss a beat. That ball throw and the look back at you... have you been teaching sit and down stays? He's got that "aha! Can't trick me where's the food?" look. It's possible that taking the collar on and off signals training time to him.

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@kakumei yes i've been doing a ton of stays (his stay requires a physical release and i dont care whether he stands, sits, or lays down but he can't move) and then his sit and down are both implied stays meaning hold the command until i release you or giev you another command but he'll take a verbal release. we've also been doing alot of duration stays but this behavior started before that

I actually have him bike with me and he enjoys it and he will do it with the e collar on

in many ways i dont mind his behavior when he has the collar on, but i dont like seeing him like that. I want him to be a dog and have a good time running around doing whatever and just have it on and have that extra solidification on the recall and other commands at a distance, not be some sulky velcro dog that will comply with what i ask for with no excitement or enthusiasm.

I dont have a mini educator anymore but the training school i go to has them and i guess i can just try one on him there.

Thats what i've tried to avoid by just having it on him all th time when he's not in the crate the whole 'training' time. But also training time has always been fun for him, hes always been super excited and interested. Maybe its just that he does'nt have high enough drive for that level of enthusiasm to show through when he's in 'training' mode as you call it.

 

[kakumei]

@jesusreigns4ever I don't really know, but maybe backing off on some of the more formal training and go back to young puppy socialization and that sort of stuff, just with the ecollar on, and see if that helps? Or just basic beginning ecollar stuff again?

Though, especially with a fear period the biggest thing is time, honestly. You could also have a vet check him to be extra sure he's okay. Maybe he like stepped on a sharp rock or ran into a wall or something similar after you put the collar on or stimmed him and now he thinks the collar did it.

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@kakumei and also yea, i was thinking maybe its just the 'fear' period though. he got spooked by the bike at first but we worked through it and he enjoys running along with the bike now. its just weird how he will snap out of it as soon as its off. (i dont normally just take it off if he's being like that, but i wanted to for demonstration purposes)

 

[peter67]

@jesusreigns4ever

I would alternate between a nick with the command or a few nicks after hte command and it always resulted in an excited dog bolting to me or to place tail wagging waiting for the next command.

The way you describe using the e collar makes wonder if you are using it the wrong way. Have you always applied the stim when giving a command? For me, only when the dog is not complying should you use the stim. Using the E collar as an aversive tool is the correct way or the most common way of using it - still use the lowest level of correction mostly.

There are trainer describing using the E collar stim only as a mimic of a "tap on the shoulder", an non-aversive. But it's hard to do. I've seen dogs freak out with mini educator level 5 - and level 1 was enough for that dog, as a correction- but this is likely an outlier. However there are plenty of dogs that are seeing mini educator level 5 as correction too. Also low levels of stim that we humans don't even feel on skin can be felt by dogs as corrections- so it's not always a reliable way to test the effectiveness or the heaviness of correction using human standards.

 

[the_family_monastery]

@peter67 This. Also I believe Krohn’s method requires a shock in one stage of training even if the dog immediately responds. I’m not crazy about that... do it a few times too many any you’ll create learned helplessness.

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@the_family_monastery yeah I think I basically just spent too much time in the conditioning phase thinking it would help but it was just becoming confusing for him. I switched to only nick if non compliance after the command and he seems better already.

 

[nyr94]

@jesusreigns4ever I don't know anything about that brand. Have you tried the collar on your skin? I know you mentioned that a 1 feels like a mini-educator 6, but I'm curious if the collar malfunctioned at some point, and gave the pup to strong of a nick? My dog did NOT respond well to eCollars, and would do something similar, even at VERY low levels (I used a mini educator as well). A 1 or 2, which I couldn't feel on my skin, would make my dog shut down instantly, like it was too much for him.

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@nyr94 yes i tried it on my skin i actually put it on my neck. 1 is liek a barely perceptible tickle on the neck, 2 is a tiny bit more intense, 3 is a very slight sting, 4 is where you start to actually have a bit of muscle twitch but not pain. 5 is a pretty strong muscle twtich when engaged, not comfortable but not painful. i didn't go past 5 on my neck. i went up to an 8 on my forearm which basically made my hand/wrist move and it was somewhat painful. again, i never went to any of these higher levels on the dog though.

 

[7thdayrest]

@jesusreigns4ever Interesting, he’s definitely showing low-level stressors in that latter video with the ecollar on. Not incredibly, but just enough to keep him disinterested in motivators. He did a heavy, long, full-body shake when you removed the collar, which to me shows he’s trying to blow off some thick steam. It didn’t even seem like you were using it.

I’d try to back off the ecollar and keep him on a long line dragging instead. There’s no reason you can’t let him cool down from it and try it again later if you’re so inclined. I’d say it could have to do with a fear period as well, and that doesn’t mean you’ll have to stop it altogether. Some dogs get like, head-shy and neck-shy and booty-shy and all kinds of fearful during that time.

Btw edit: he’s a huge cutie and his obedience actually looks very good. Keep up the good work.

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@7thdayrest yes exactly, i noticed the body shake which indicates exactly what you described, and no, i was not 'using' it at all during the video, it was merely physically on him.

I will try that for now i think.

Thank you, much appreciated!

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@jesusreigns4ever How much rewarding were you doing while training with it?
Videos wouldn’t load so it’s hard to say, but I may be the e collar was more pressure mentally than it seemed, and the reward ratio was low enough he just feels deflated as soon as he realizes it’s on.
Or could be something unrelated to training if you’re noticing lethargic behavior in any other situations.

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@imagebeastmarkbeast i rewarded with high value food every time the e collar was used.

here are the videos since google drive doesn't work apparently:

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@jesusreigns4ever How old?
He doesn’t seem shut down, just disinterested. Weird. I’d try taking the e collar off and see if you can get him back to where he was, then try putting the e collar back on (and still don’t use it for a while).

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@imagebeastmarkbeast Its a few hours since and i took him out for a potty break and did some heeling and recalls with no e collar on, tons of enthusiasm and when released he just wanted to run around insanely like a bat out of hell, tons of energy. Did you watch the second video to the point where i took the collar off? he pops right out of it.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@jesusreigns4ever Yeah. So then I’d be inclined to lean into my original thought. The pressure it too much for him mentally. Look into how to properly layer pressure into training, it might be that you need to do that much more slowly. You could try conditioning the stim itself to be a reward marker to relieve some of the pressure, or maybe you need to switch to a collar with 1-100 so you can go even lower.

 

[jesusreigns4ever]

@imagebeastmarkbeast i have a pretty good understanding of how to layer pressure into the training and he responds well to it but if you have a good specific resource/video in mind i'd be happy to check it ou. because this collar has so many contact points, i can just add more to reduce the perceived stim. I might have the trainer at our school try the mini educator on him. However, i was never able to get good contact with it on him when i had one.

 

[braydeno]

@jesusreigns4ever He looks as if he understands when the collar goes on its work time and he is maybe bored with the work he is doing. Once the collar comes off its play/free time. Maybe try some completely new training that is positive/fun and leave the collar on and just don't use it?

 

[axolotl]

@jesusreigns4ever Check for sores, make sure the collar is working properly on yourself.